I came across this post from 2011. We were discussing the primal desire to procreate which many experience. This was riginally titled, “Primal” Goes Beyond Procreation. I wrote:
“I am not sure that relationship between men and women has actually evolved… or that it even can evolve. Women binding their feet years ago in China, did so to attract a man. These days they get breast implants and shoot their faces full of botox and I don’t see the difference. A woman may have money and power and her crotch still aches for a man.”
eva responded:
“Hormonally men and women lose interest in this stuff as they age. I’m not saying we all become these sexless husks — it’s still nice to feel pretty and fun to get a little attention once in a while but there’s just not that burning biological imperative in either gender. With the eighth house now I’m more concerned about money and dying.
So for a big part of the lifecycle — the fertile one — it’s huge. But pre-menstrually and post-menstrually…maybe not.”
eva’s point is valid! However, there are other reasons men and women mate. Status for one thing. To be able to socialize for another.
For example, my husband and I have discussed moving to South America. He said I would get along with the women there, just fine, so long as I had my own husband.
I don’t think he’s wrong about this and I don’t blame the women one bit. There always going to be people in the world who look at a woman who has no man and think, “Poor thing, couldn’t get a man.” Even if this infuriates you, it’s true. So if a woman is married, by and large, she’s going to want to protect her situation.
The same thing holds for men. Over 30 and never been married?
As I read on Michael Lutin’s site some years ago regarding people in this situation, “You’d better do something. People are starting to talk…” “People” as in “the collective”. Individuals may disagree! But most people do feel pressure, post their Saturn return.
The urge to procreate is definitely primal but this other stuff is deeply rooted as well. And it persists, regardless of the relentless campaign to make it not so.
Edit to add, on New Year’s Eve, 2019, with a large stellium in Capricorn; what I failed to mention here was the issue of security. It is easier to maintain a household with two people contributing. This is true, even if only one of them works outside the home.
You may be able to do it all, but given a choice, I think most people would prefer to have someone around they could rely on.
What do you think? What is “primal” to you, in the realm of partnering?
Nothing is as simple as black and white.
The act, or the emotion, or the drive, or the connection, or the release, or the therapy, or the energy, or the fun, or the conception, or the attachment, or the communication, or the warmth, or the thrill, or the chase, or the status, or the skill, or the desire, or the wanted, or the making up, or the … … …
So many aspects and angles to examine this, but yes, sex for simply the sake of having sex does not stay on the top of people’s priority list throughout their lives
Here on Brazil, we have lots of singles around 30’s+… im one, and many women in my circle of contacts are single as well. Specially now that most women are really independent. Honestly something that annoy more ourselves, than to be really talked about over relationship status, that rarely occurs. I can only speak for those i know. But as a Brazilian native, it gives more consistence to this matter, at least in Rio de Janeiro.
Yeah, I know you keep saying this, that this is a generalized attitude out there among women but I have just never run into it. I have a friend who has this attitude about being single: like she doesn’t want to go places by herself, no one invites her anywhere because it’s all couples and so forth.
But *generally* I guess I just run into more single women who are my age or older, and I was raised by two single moms; and none of these women particularly wanted relationships or felt they’re missing out. In fact over the years I could not get over how much my relationship would *get in the way* of stuff I wanted to do.
If I heard ” poor thing, couldn’t get a man, ” I think I’d laugh. I’d be more mortified to hear, ” Poor thing, managed to catch yourself another abusive prick I see.” Which is, you know, a fair point.
In fact in the middle of my custody battle with the guy I was married to before this last ex, he said to me, ” I can’t believe you ended up with a loser again.”
!
it’s kind of funny now. He was right.
BUT to your point, I absolutely agree. Of course women want to be with men and of course this is natural and primal. And I don’t think it will ever be different no matter how different society appears. It will just organize itself differently around the same undeniable fact.
Paulo, my husband lived in Rio de Janeiro, specifically, for a number years but he spent most his in various countries ’round there. This may be more pronounced in our generation.
I know my friend, denamaria (she used to comment here so people know her) is from Honduras. She’s my age and I am sure this would register with her.
”Poor thing, managed to catch yourself another abusive prick I see.” Which is, you know, a fair point.
Yes fair point, probably why I’m still alone, I’m not looking to be abused either.
It’s birds and bees is all. And holding hands after that. Nature is complex. Societies are limiting, but they do offer a sense of order. When has it ever been otherwise?
Elsa
im from 77… i mean around around my age, i mean 70, 80’s. But i think that in overall we judge more by the wealth status (here).
It’s entirely primal, and very few of us lose the urge to mate, or at least to enjoy sex, as we get older. It’s a myth, that older people lose interest in sex! We may find it easier to sublimate that urge, as we get older, if there is no outlet for it – but it’s certainly still there and if you have always enjoyed sex, and had good fulfilling sexual experiences, you will not lose the urge to keep finding that! And when you find it, the old lust and obsession comes surging back, as insistent as ever.
Maybe a few women do lose interest who had bad experiences and have no wish to repeat the same (I know some); and some women never really enjoyed sex that much anyway and even felt relief to leave all that behind. But I believe they are a minority. The sex lives of the over 50s/60s may be a taboo subject in Western societies, but they haven’t gone away 😉
As for the wider ramifications: I’m certainly not on my own because I couldn’t get a man – I’ve had plenty! – but getting a man who is both free and whom I’d want to share my life with has proved impossible since my divorce (I was c40).
I do miss having a man in my bed and in my life, but as you note Elsa, I also miss very much the social/status aspects of being married or partnered. Outside a big city, life as an older single woman is pretty difficult unless you’re resigned to a sexless round of church, good works and charity drives with other women. I’m not: I miss male company. And I’ve no wish to be patronised by ‘smug marrieds’.
“Outside a big city, life as an older single woman is pretty difficult unless you’re resigned to a sexless round of church, good works and charity drives with other women”
Yeah, I’m resigned to that. Don’t see a problem with it. But I plan to be working all the time, so basically work and service. And if my only choice because I can’t make it on my own is to self-subjugate so a man takes care of me, I’ll kill myself. I’m not kidding.
Yup I know. This is the story of my life, I feel the stigma creep in as the years go by, from my family most of the time. Saturn is involved, what can I do? I’ll tell you though, I think when I am 55 I will be having so much better sex than 22 year olds are now.
Yes, I am aware that I AM A GIANT LOSER for not having caught a man yet. Though really, if you saw my options for men, it’s even worse 😛 I do get tired of hearing it all the fucking time though. Yes, I’m a loser, I GET IT ALREADY. You think I should fuck the first 60-year-old homeless bum I pick up off the street so I can finally be worth something in society? Is that honestly better?
Good point!
“Poor thing, couldn’t get a man.”
Then there’s those who figure if you’re with a man you must be sexually active and therefore worthless.
The lesson here is you can’t let people judge you.
Yes. Or judge ourselves
There’s always some reason to feel not good enough.
And some reason to feel proud of ourselves and grateful for some things.
I’m in my mid sixties. I have an eighth house sun and sex for me seems to get more and more important as the years go by.
Me too Karen. Funny you mention it.
I have an 8th house moon. The need for deep connection along with the intimacy comes out in relations Ive had with men.
And I havent lost it in my 50s. As I get older, the deeper and stronger my feelings are and so is my need for physical intimacy.
All this busy-ness in Capricorn – I think it will also speak a lot to the aging experience, given Saturn, and with Neptune in its Pisces home, we may just have more spiritual wisdom going on, and the need for spiritual connection.
I don’t think it’s just about the hormones and their depletion as we age. Physical closeness, skin on skin, that intimacy calls to me and I hope it always will – is a testament to the beautiful experience we have being human with our bodies which also connect emotionally, mentally and spiritually. There’s tonnes of research to indicate how useful that is – serotonin levels increase with human touch. Some people will recoil as they consider older skin, wrinkles etc. and some may have a more open awareness of the intimacy that can embrace all of that. It is unfortunate we’re so programmed by advertising regarding appearance norms. Embracing our humanness is lovely when there hasn’t been the type of experience like trauma that complicates.
The stats though are telling as far as how many fewer single men are available; demographics show women begin outnumbering the men by 50 and it’s several times over by the 70’s. IF one is hetero, that does affect the opportunity for skin on skin contact – especially as the requirement for some ‘sympatico’ is still there of course, and we can be more set in emotional ways that may restrict openness.
I don’t condemn anyone who hasn’t ‘snagged’ a man, or made that a thing in their lives. There’s an equally powerful pressure to give all that up and be empowered. yet… I find some truth in the ‘crotch’ statement – that many of us certainly still continue to desire.
Agreed, Skin hunger is a real thing.I also enjoy mens company. For some reason I am more likely to get a deep conversation from them.
I find sex vastly overrated but I understand the appeal.
I think I have a primal urge to partner but it doesn’t go any further than that. I don’t need kids. And I’m giving myself a pass on not having been married by 30, partly because it’s incredibly normal in this day and age, and also because being queer throws a wrench in the whole traditional life script.
I’ve never married and I’m 70. But I believe most of the pressure comes from the harsh, silent, inner judgments I can make about myself because I have never found a long term partner. Really trying not to do that, and I’ve had to do a lot of work in just re-educating my mindset to the belief that I amm as worthy and as valuable in society as anyone is who is married and has children. I have Virgo Ascendant and Sun square Saturn and Venus opposite Chiron, so I believe that the astrology can play a part as well.
But yes, it would be nice to have a loyal and compatible companion. We shall see. I’m open to it, even now.
I’m 34 and for as long as I can remember I have wanted to be bound and deeply intertwined with another. Of course at this time in my life it’s even more intense because it has not manifested. I understand why and it’s frustrating. It’s about having this in a way that is healthy and mutual. I did not grasp that in my younger years. I will be fulfilled with passion that purifies instead of scalding me.
For me it’s primal, this energy will always be with me. The kids aren’t necessary however the need for a binding, passionate, transformative eternal connection has always been there lol
I don’t ever care about society’s stance on this, specifically because I have seen many ppl take a road to a dead end. No thanks, I’ll take my time with this as it is important to me.
“And it persists, regardless of the relentless campaign to make it not so.”
I am 28 years old, so you’re older than I am, Elsa. That gives you the benefit of wisdom and experience – things I value and respect – but that also leaves you with a huge blind spot that in my opinion, sometimes, trips you up as you make these observations about women, men or the world in general.
For starters: there are no “relentless campaigns” against.. what would we call it exactly, getting married later? Eternal singledom? Delayed coupling? Whatever you’re referring to, there is no such thing – people are getting married later, or not at all, because they choose to. That in turn, is a natural progression of the growing awareness in society of the structures we’ve created for ourselves, and how easily they can be dismantled to the benefit of everyone who don’t fit within them.
You write about how 30 year olds are judged for never being married as if it’s a societal dogma, an irrefutable truth. But in my country of birth, the median age at the first marriage year 2019 is 33 for women, 36 for men: the median age in my South American country of origin, is also 33 for women, and 35 for men. With this in mind do you really think that people are going to judge others by the same metrics you see as self evident, for ever?
So I, respectfully, disagree. I see where you’re coming from as your perspective is a traditional one; but the world is not static and society and the rules within them are human constructs that can be dissolved at any point in time. The way things are looking there will be a time quite soon, maybe even under my life time, where the kind of thinking you write of will be extinct – without any campaign to make it so…
You may be right!
I am single and in my early 50s. Yes I agree that culture we are born into affects our values and expectations. I always wanted and expected to marry but it has not happened as yet. There are some moments where I yearn for that security of being in a committed relationship. There are times I am grateful for being true to myself. I will still continue to look for a mate.
I’ve tried binding my feet, but it didn’t work.
Naahhh, just kidding!
The crotch part I agree, there is sometimes a need.
But it doesn’t have to lead to partnering.
I think partnering/marriage is more of a societal/cultural/religious thing.
As for security and maintaining a household with two people contributing, yes. (With or without crotch &/or bound feet & big boobs – people don’t always have a choice.)
The most insidous and ridiculous trend I see in my opinion is this insistance we dont need somebody to complete us and somebody who does need are looked at as needy..
Its not a matter of completion in the self worth sense. Its sad if that is the true in the case of some people. If so,there are others out there who might welcome having someone who makes them feel needed. Theres someone for everyone.
But I think this need is more primal than you think
For me, it harkens back to the very first need to be embraced,to feelsafe, feel protected and in sync with another.
After all, isnt that how we are all created? Being embraced, feeling safe, feeling protective and in sync within our mothers?
”There always going to be people in the world who look at a woman who has no man and think, “Poor thing, couldn’t get a man.”
For the past 10 years I have been working in a team consisting of 30 receptionists. I found this to be very true. The women without a boyfriend or children are lower in status. The others will make
you feel you are less. It came to the point that I kept hidden for 4 years whether I was partnered or not.
Imagine their surprise when I revealed I have been in a relationship for 6 months with the handsomest and most charming security guard at work: Double Virgo! This is the guy everyone wants, but he wanted nobody. Except me! He is also 15 years younger than I am. My status has improved a lot! And I made everyone feel like a fool. The thought they had me pecked, but HA!
The both of us never had an urge to procreate though.The issue of security is definitely a primal urge for me. He is a security guard, whahaha!
Lol
Gemster…?
Yes, I experience this as a 78 year old active woman who was married for ten years, had a family and then a number of exclusive relationships since. No single man has measured up and that sucks, as men keep dropping dead in their 50s 60s 70s. So Ive been seeing a married man who let me down with his promises. I hate it that he is not available for some events when I need an escort or available when a mouse gets in the house. I miss having breakfast on the patio with a man. And I do resent married friends for their sense of privileged status and financial security. Were I not renowned in my field, I would have no social value at all. Life without a partner is more restricted and less fun.
Finally…someone calling b***sh**.
Married women resent our freedom and we resent their obliviousness to the loneliness or financial fragility of our situation.
We women are our own worst enemies. We dont always emotionally respect and acknowledge each other’s own fragility in our lives in a lifelong competition with our own sex.
for me, when the question is: to pair up I notice I want to be with someone I am connected to, that there is a feeling I love being around them, to be happy in their presence. I don’t like a lot of people’s “energy”; nothing wrong with a lot of them of course, it’s just me. While one man is another woman’s treasure, I don’t like a lot of them. I find that same with women, I like certain energies or certain company. I got lucky with enjoying my husband’s and son’s energy a lot. I could live with them all my life till death. that kind of energy. otherwise i’ll stay single. and have distant company sometimes if I don’t have anyone I can find that I love their company. I thought maybe because I love them I love their company. but I notice that I may love someone but I don’t always like to be around them, family or friends.
I’ve read all the posts on this thread and agree with most. I’ve been married for most of my fertile, adult life so I can’t say I know what it is like to be single or how society might perceive singles.
Having said that, staying in a long-term relationship requires tonnes of compromise. Over time it’s less about the crotch and more about the fact that you haven’t killed each other off yet and have bills to pay and kids to raise. In the absence of abuse or affairs, any differences between parties becomes petty annoyances.