Charlotte wrote on Venus and Mars – What You Want and How You Get It:
“I have Venus in Pisces (in the 7th), Mars in Sadge. I want affection and love. I get it by going to bars and being gregarious, off-the-cuff, flirtatiously feisty. Wow have I got myself a reputation in a small town like this. Yowza.”
I was attracted to this writing and it made me think about my husband. Charlotte, this is no remark or judgment on you whatsoever, I just like your writing. It gives a picture of a flirtatious woman is all. It made me wonder how he would react if he ran into you and you ran into him.
I wound up asking him. His answer surprised me but before I did I got thinking about this.
Let’s say a man blows off a flirtatious woman so as not to have trouble with his wife or girlfriend? Is that considered “pussy whipped?”
And what if he does not blow her off – flirts back. We’re talking about attached men, here. Does that make him a dog?
So here’s the question: Just exactly what is a good (loyal) man (who is attached) supposed to do when he encounters a flirtatious woman?
Anyone?
You can be polite and nice without flirting, I think. You can be noncommittal. I don’t know … my boyfriend has Venus and Mercury in Aquarius so he addresses the conversation at hand (he detaches) but he also has Libra rising, Venus conjunct his sun so he cannot help but be pleasing. I noticed that sometimes he just flirts automatically and I don’t really mind, because I remember that I like to flirt too sometimes.
um, he’s going to flirt back and if the opportunity to sleep with her arises without too much trouble or danger (though some like it dangerous and fraught), he will sleep with her. it’s not that complicated, in my opinion.
msgeminirisin it’s a different question. I am talking about a man who does not want to sleep with the woman.
Lots of men meet women like this and do have no interest in sleeping with them. I am quite sure because the soldier was able to not only tell me how he handles the situation but also how a host of other men handle – their techniques.
He did however, first say that a lot of men would try to “fuck her if she could be fucked”. But then he went on to explain what men who don’t want to fuck do and it was elaborate! 🙂
There are degrees of flirting I think. You can be friendly flirty with no real intent and you can drop subtle hints that you are NOT going to act on that flirtation.
I think this is a serious shades of gray kind of question and the answer for any specific man (or woman for that matter) depends on his partner’s comfort level. I don’t mind my man flirting one bit because I have no doubt who he’s going home with.
If you aren’t married to a 7th house Gemini sun/Jupiter/Mercury, you might want to find out exactly what crosses the line for YOUR woman (or man). 🙂
hmmmm, so initially there is no interest but naturally the thought crosses his mind if she is openly advertising her ass. then, the higher mind takes over and (barring any alcohol, angry wife phone calls, or manhood issues) he says “have a nice day, i’m going back home to my woman.” sounds nice, but the soldier sounds disciplined- i don’t know many disciplined men that i can imagine making that choice.
Well, I worked in bars for 7 years, 8 hours a day and I saw many, many, MANY men turn away a woman like this.
However (provided it was what she wanted) a gal like this always left with someone.
Depends on the dude—looking at the guys I’ve known, some will sleep with her, some will reject her with venomous judgement in their eyes (Scorpio, Pluto types with girlfriends), some will flirt and then tell her they have gfs so “she” can decide- you know, cus it’s her deal- not theirs, right? And some will just dance with her and go home…I think your definition of what a “good” man would do depends on your definition of “good,” and I don’t know if most ppl. know their definition unless it’s happened to them. I’ve never had a guy, so I don’t completely know what “good” is but I’m leaning toward the Scorpios- as long as they don’t call her a whore. I can never be with a guy like that!
And women like this annoy the crap out of me–selfish brats. And they always use their childhoods as an excuse. Dumbasses. Sorry. Had to vent.
I think it’s fine if he flirts back, so long as neither of them take it too far or too seriously. Banter is one thing, touching is another…
A good man will politely end a conversation before it gets too involved. And if she gets pushy, he’ll have to be pushy back, perhaps very direct, hopefully in a decent way, and hopefully she will then be decent and walk away/choose another guy.
I’d say everyone still wants to be special for someone else, and not just one more fish in the net. That’s like with money, the more we print the less it’s worth. And for a flirtatious person, no matter if woman or man, the only one who’s special in their eyes is actually her/himself.
Sonah22, not all flirtatious women are out to hurt anyone. And not everyone blames their childhood for their personality defects.
I think the decent man’s response is dependent on his woman’s comfort level and boundaries. I don’t mind a bit of harmless fun so long as everyone knows he’s going home with me. My guy is good at letting everyone know that he has a woman and his loyalty is with me while still flirting back a bit.
Well wow. This is the second time a comment of mine has made an appearance on the Elsa blog and Jeeze, how flattered am I?! Here is my (very limited) experience.
In a bar, no one is married. I always feel like, if they’re flirting with me back, they’re available. Now, don’t take this as me saying I would do the nassstay with a married or attached man, or just a man as he presented himself, I would not. Personally, I will flirt till the cows come home but as soon as he starts touching me or hinting he wants something more, I’m off like a light. So maybe I’m not a slut…just a tease.
Men and women flirt, it’s what they do. In my experience, sometimes all they wanna do is prove they still got it. You know? Same with women. We all want to know we’re still sexually attractive to the opposite sex. I know the boundaries of my self-respect.
Honestly though, I turn 23 tomorrow. I’m still learning this stuff. I like the men who love to flirt back, which, in my experience, ALL of them do. Flirting is an art. Some men, married or otherwise, don’t understand that and take it to the level of vulgarity. Play with me, don’t molest me.
“And for a flirtatious person, no matter if woman or man, the only one who’s special in their eyes is actually her/himself.”
I am not openly flirtatious usually. I tend to be pretty subtle and careful about who I flirt with but I object to the idea that flirting is inherently bad. A little charm and flattery can go a long way to brightening someone’s day. For me it is a subtle interaction between myself and the object of my interest with careful attention to everyone’s boundaries.
I think those of you who are demonizing flirtatious women are talking about a different sort of person all together than what I am thinking of. Flirting doesn’t equal selfish and self serving.
Hey Lupa–probably so–i’m probably just a bit bitter-i was a fat child ;P
i’m also thinking about a friend of mine who I recently broke up with–she was a serial flirt, and she would sleep with married guy after guy with girlfriend after married guy-and she was quite selfish about it. Sorry if i offended anyone! The old relationship and another one of my own affairs with a guy are on my mind…
Yeah I think that’s a whole different character sonah22. Serial trashy woman there really.
Lupa, Charlotte, I’ve got Venus-Saturn-Neptune, so it’s not my way to understand, give and receive love, but it may be yours and it’s a good chance to see how people are different and see things different too. I’m not judging, just saying what I think from where I am 🙂
In other words, a man who flirts is not pussy-whipped. He’s just a man.
Flirting isn’t fucking. Flirting doesn’t mean you’re GOING to fuck. I agree with Charlotte. It’s an art and a game.
So says my 7th house Gemini sun, Mercury and Jupiter. 🙂
My focus when I wrote this was not on the woman.. judging her or anything. What interested me was the dilemma this creates for the disinterested man.
It turns out (via the soldier) that men know all about these situations and how you and and should get out of them.
For example, you CAN’T out and out reject the woman because of the “hell hath no fury like a woman scorned…” If you do that, the woman will be gunning for you. She will get your ass! So you have to have other ways..
He went on to outline a few of them… it was clear men know this stuff. For example, the old ‘get her to break up with you..”
His brother (who obnoxious) will start slobbering on himself. The soldier starts talking about his 1914 Volkswagon and his the job as a janitor he has to get to.
They don’t want the woman pissed off, see?
He explains, a man bothering you, you can tell him to “carry ass”. But you can’t tell a woman that because you can’t back it up.
“Tell a man to carry ass, if he doesn’t do it, then you kick his ass. Tell a woman to carry ass and she doesn’t do it, there is nothing you can do! And she’s going to be pissed off and she is going to get you one way or the other.”
She went on to say the gal might tell your wife or gf she slept with you… this kind of stuff so he just makes himself undesirable… no one gets their feelings hurt and hell breaks loose.
But yeah. His brother starts spilling food down his shirt… 🙂
I think the thing that bothers me about flirty women is that I wish I could be more laid back or less emotional in little moments myself-the horny part of me wants to be laissez faire about going out, flirting and so on—but I usually come off as too intense or into “serious” stuff when I flirt, which um, is kind of true LOL. I’m probably more angry at the lower level of sensitivity since mine stresses me out in bar type situations. As long as you’re not knowingly hurting anyone or yourself, Charlotte, you have a right to do what feels good to you. I’m also only 24 so I have a lot left to process.
Lol Elsa–like intentionally? Just spills food on himself? Or he’s nervous?
In other words, dear Charlotte, let’s get back to this once he’s your man, ok? 🙂
It’s interesting to try and figure out the man’s perspective. Especially because it seems to me that there aren’t a lot of men commenting on this blog. It’s fascinating to me. Men, I mean. I can’t answer that other than to say that when men flirt, who are attached, eventually bring their women into it physically or conversationally. A sort of “back off I have a girlfriend” vibe. Summoning her to his side (if she is there) or metaphorically doing so. “my girlfriend says…”
I have seen other men (in my past, as a bartender) buy the girl and drink and then leave….
That is another common out.
People who think all men want to get in a bed with a flirty girl are out of their mind. There are loyal men who are in a bar.. there are also men who are in love… just lost a love and deep in despair and mourning.
There is a man who comes off a relationship and goes right back out but someone of them don’t want anything to do with dating anyone for many many months.
I have known men who take 6 months to a year to recover from a break up and there is just no way they have any desire to flirt and the fact is, a woman like this does put them in a position where they need a maneuver.
“Lol Elsa–like intentionally? Just spills food on himself? Or he’s nervous?”
Fuck no, he’s not nervous. The soldier’s bro gets more ass than a toilet seat. He is the kind of man every woman who sees him wants a piece and he will screw most of them, readily.
However, sometimes he might be tired or something.. or maybe just out drinking with his bro, so in these situations he will literally drool his food out of his mouth while talking animatedly to get rid of the girl… But not piss her off!!
These boys aren’t stupid, see? They get what they want whatever that might be but they DO NOT PISS HER OFF because then you’ve got trouble.
Er… the point here is these women are an annoyance to some men, but no man is ever going to let them know it.
They may be bullets they have to dodge… they may be disrupting a train of thought but if one of them comes up to a man – if she is on stage, then he is on stage too – OR ELSE!
Yikes. I’m out.
That’s a great idea. If I was talking to someone and food came out of his mouth and fell all over him…well I’d be gone in a split second! And laughing at him, but having felt like I’d escaped, none the wiser that he actually had…
To turn it around, I have tried things like that when I don’t want to talk to a man, mostly because I hate rejecting them outright.
Yeah, well these boys are southern and that hayseed act is and act!
That’s brilliant. 🙂
I’ll have to ask my guy what he does. I know there was a woman hitting on him (with very clear intent not just playing) when he was playing music in Ireland shortly after he met me. I think he just slipped away that night.
I don’t think I’ve ever hit on someone I wasn’t really sure was interested. That’s what happens when the Scorpio side and the Gemini are working together. 🙂
In another scenario, the flirting girl approaches the man who is actually eying someone across the bar… another big problem.
So ask your men how they handle this and report back so we can learn!!! 🙂
My brother used to tell them very remorseful that he’d got a venereal disease 🙂
This past Saturday I celebrated one of my friend’s birthday at a nice new bar here in town. She invited a girl she met last year in one of her college classes; a young, drop-dead gorgeous, bangin’ body girl I tell ya. She got completely shit-faced (to the embarassment of the rest of us!)and was gropping a random man all night. If I hadn’t witnessed it myself, I would have NEVER believed that any man with a pulse could resist her advances. He was completely annoyed and kept turning his face away from her when she was clearly trying to make out with him. I couldn’t believe my eyes.
I can sort of relate to Sonah22, I spent a lot of time being jealous of flirty girls (in my EARLY twenties, which was not too long ago), not because I thought they were audacious, but because I secretly wished I could be so confident around male energy. I have that Cappy moon that kind of made me self-conscious I guess, and there was some sort of blockage(?) between my inner flirt and it’s frution. Over the past few years I’ve been making an effort to be more flirty which feels good because I am naturally a friendly person, and I think friendly/flirty is my true disposition. I’m married so I keep it really light, and I trust myself completely.
Maybe you could start small Sonah22 😉
🙁
My long comment went to the shitter.
Another interesting post…my husband and I have had this discussion before. He has oftened had women “flirt” with him…he travels quite a bit for business and goes to
trivia night with our two sons whom are 18 and 25 and they have been witness to this too, which they think is funny because my husband is the quiet, silent type. Virgo, with rising Scorpio and 9 out of ten times he doesn’t even realize he is being flirted with which I think is funny. He is old-fashioned in his thinking and so he tells me that once he realizes what is going on he says,”you seem like a real nice lady and I want to tell you that I am married and you would probably be better off talking to someone else who would readily be charmed by you and your gracious ways.”
He really talks like this and it is one of the qualities I find so endearing in him. He is uncomfortable at times with overtures and affection. He is Moon in Gemini so he is much more stimulated by intellectual talk. I am, on the other hand more gregarious and can be very charming. But there is no agenda in mind….I just like to make people feel good, share a little joy.
My husband has mentioned how surprised he has been at the outright boldness and assertiveness of at least one particular woman and it embarrassed him. This comes from a man that in 26 years with has never called me an ill name…he is just not like that. Now with men, if someone is an asshole….he has no problem…..
Flirting back with women when they flirt with you and t hbk ey know your wife is present. This is usually a competitive tactic place thean in middle. I this virgo flirts back just to cheer the atmosphere Knowing all along who I’m leaving with. Even when you show true commitment it’s a no win situation. The one you leave with is pissed you disrespected her. But if you shut down the flirt you get your food spit in and the one you leave with no longer it wanting you because she isn’t intrigued the someone else wants you. Flirtation Women and men are chaser only looking for a ego boost most general it is teasing fun unless the are addicted to 7 mins of drama.
Oh boy, if I was a guy, then I’d be in trouble. Harmless flirting is just that… harmless. If someone’s flirting with me though while I am attached, and has another intention, well then it annoys me to no end and I am not very nice. That men can’t do the same I find very unfair lol!! 😀
depends on your definition of flirting and their ability to realize when they are being flirted with. Some people really don’t mean to flirt…they just do. that’s their natural personality. and some people (like me) are completely oblivious when they are being flirted with and have no clue…so they would talk back and chat and be very confused later when confronted with their “flirting”.
I agree that some men do not like heavy flirting and also that not all men are desperate to take a girl home. I say this because I have always been an incorrigible flirt and now that I am older (thirties) I can see that some men don’t actually like it if you are too seemingly available. There is a belief that all men will sleep with anything available (any hole is a goal etc) but I do think that like women all men are different, and that there are men who are in love and want to be faithful.
I think lighthearted banter is fine as long as it is clear that is all it is. Certainly not in front of the partner though – I find that disrespectful. In my early twenties I used to flirt outrageously in front of my boyfriend – I had the errroneous belief that it showed him I was attractive and he was lucky…he just thought I was a tart! Age is a fine thing…
I’m with all those who say flirting is an art. You can also tell when a good flirt meets another good flirt – they just bounce off each other and the verbal play tends to be delightful.
Conny I have Venus-Saturn-Neptune too, but my Venus is in Gemini and flirting to me is as natural as breathing. My son has a Libra Moon sextile Venus and the kid is a natural flirt, has been from when he was 4 months old. This stuff is fairly hard-wired.
My husband is very playful, he wants to be polite and he has a mischievous streak, so if someone flirted with him I think he’d play back but he wouldn’t touch them. I can’t see him rejecting anyone outright – he wouldn’t want to hurt their feelings or piss them off.
“There is a belief that all men will sleep with anything available (any hole is a goal etc) ”
I think women underestimate men all the time. I am surprised over and over how many women think men are stupid and/or babies/clueless.
Elsa, I agree. Very dangerous to band people together like that and also limiting for your own life experience.
I think some women do that as a protective measure when they have had a bad experience. I know I have before.
“I think some women do that as a protective measure when they have had a bad experience. I know I have before.”
Someone else said that to me. A woman has a REALLY bad experience with a man and concludes all men are the same. Or she is perhaps taught this by her mother or whatever.
However it comes about, it is a wrong or what James Braha calls, “a mistake of the intellect”.
Men are attracted to women (and vice versa) but women have an attracting power that they tend to abuse, misuse or not use in a classy way that serves them best. Seduction is definitely an art form that can be exhilerating! I get the part about how a man needs a different approach to difuse a woman and how its easier for a woman to just blow off a guy. You never know what people might do at any given time considering the circumstances. If it is a bar setting, then someone is drinking alcohol so all bets are off!!
I have no insights on the question, but this reminds me of an Ask Metafilter thread I just read last night. The guy was on a business trip with another chick. They go to dinner. She picks a fancy restaurant. He tells her he has issues with his hotel, she recommends hers, she invites him up, he never shows. He has an SO that presumably he’s never mentioned to her. He said he’s clueless about social interaction, but is “flirty” and asked if he’d led her on/was on a date.
I said, hell YES, you did and you were. Don’t ask me how someone with an SO doesn’t manage to mention them in conversation for 4 hours unless you are deliberately not mentioning them. Most people love to mention “we” in conversation at the very least.
So, I guess the answer is, don’t talk about hotel rooms and do mention that you are taken.
i asked my husband about this. he just shook his head and said he wouldn’t have clue one if a woman is flirting with him or not most of the time, and i know it’s true. it sure took him long enough to realize I was flirting with him when we first hooked up…
i do remember him telling me LONG ago of a woman he thought was trying to pick up on him when he was out. he talked about flashing his wedding ring and was surprised she didn’t seem to care. he was trying to use it as a stop sign.
Holy moly, all ready 51 responses, lol. There is what I like to believe my husband does, which is maybe politely flirt a little, and then of course remember how much he loves me – but who the hell knows, if I am not there, and Cindy Crawford is winking at him, what the hell do I know what he does. I can only hope he respects his marriage, and most definitely does not let it go too far. I know that since I made the marital commitment, I do not even try to make eye contact with other men, because in my past, men flirted with me constantly, and I just use my body-language to shut that down. Does he do that – who knows?
Smile, tell her she’s a beautiful lady, and you thank her for paying attention to an old married drone like you.
See? Nice.
haha Shell–thanks for the advice…
Aw, Lexie that is nice…but you know, now that I’ve been thinking about it, those food-spillers and the ones with a venereal disease ones are the types I usually get attracted to-young and silly. Aries moon, what can I say–I need to work on the Cancer Venus more 😛