A reader from India asks:
I just want to know that, are marriages really made in heaven? Is it fixed from before who is going to marry whom astrologically or some times marriages can be made and broken by human choices?
And is it possible that a girl A is “made” for a boy B, but somehow ends up in marrying another boy C?
And if this is possible then what will happen to the girl who was going to get married to the boy C??
I don’t think our lives are predestined. We’re constantly presented with choices and the choices we make lead to other sets of choices and so on.
In the example you present, I would say girl A is not made for either boy. She may be better suited to boy B, but if she marries boy C, the world is not going to collapse. In fact, she may wind up with Boy B, further down the road after other things fall into or out of place. We just don’t know the future!
I think the universe is dynamic and the plan, grand. I have a hard time believing one person’s bad choice will mess up another person’s life… over the long term.
In other words, you may think someone has wrecked your life but I think most people realize eventually, the things that have happened to them have served them in some way and research bears this out. Because most everyone, when asked if they would trade their life for the life of some other another person, say no.
What do the rest of you think about Girl A and her two boys?
Hi Elsa
Your answer was very wise. I agree.
I think the idea that one person is “made for another” is a fanciful and romantic proposition which needs to be approached with suspicion. It might be nice if it were true though – and we could all find our elusive “only one”!
It’s often possible to say that a couple were “made for each other”, but usually only after they’ve spent many years working on it. It’s something that can be seen only with hindsight, I think.
I’m not sure, but it is a testament to your positive self, Elsa, to say that most people would keep the life they have. I know I would keep mine, but I can’t help but wonder how things would pan out if I had made a few decisions en route.
You know, I’m curious!
I might have misspoke. What I meant to say was people, if you ask them if they would like to be someone else… have another person’s problems, they say no. As much as they may hate it, they want their own life. This is different than having regrets over choices they made. I think a lot of people have regrets…
Holy Elsa, that was a fast response!
I totally get what you’re saying. I used to say “I have no regrets” but it gets harder to say that the older you get, especially once you’ve made amends with people.
And hell no, I don’t want anyone else’s problems. I do want my own life.
I think about ‘lost loves’ too. The man my Mom pined for for YEARS before she met my Dad was revealed to be a child abuser. She’s pretty happy she didn’t sng him, afterall.
“In other words, you may think someone has wrecked your life but I think most people realize eventually, the things that have happened to them have served them in some way and research bears this out.”
Sorry, I don’t believe this at all. It’s easy for us in the developed world to think this way. But what about someone who has been sold into white slavery and lives the rest of her life as a prostituted slave? The people who sold her into that life have most certainly wrecked her life and I doubt very much that when she is 70 she will feel as if everything happened “for a reason”. Or the 8 year old boy in Africa who is forced into being a soldier and committing unspeakable acts? Those kinds of things still happen in the world in this day and age. Some horrible things happen to people and they don’t always serve them in any way, nor are people always able to transform these experiences into something better. Terrible acts of heartbreak and betrayal happen every day and they’re not always correctible, if there is such a word.
Marly presupposes that the natural position for growth is comfort. I’ve had tragic things in my life that I wouldn’t trade for anything. I’ve also had bliss that didn’t lead anywhere.
I think it’s all about choices, forks in our little roads. Some people are placed in our life for a reason, whether it’s personal growth or comfort or whatever. These people are stepping stones in our personal evolution. Doesn’t make Boy A anymore valid for Girl A than Boy B, just gives them a different option and reasons to appear (and possibly disappear) in her life.
I think destiny is malleable as much an oxymoron that is. But it’s all about choices.
i think some types of people might be more compatible with each other (“made for each other”) than others, but i don’t think there is one and only one person who is “The One.” and people are never (or very rarely) going to be “perfectly” compatible with each other, though some relationships are probably easier to maintain than others, based on the people invovled.
so i guess it comes down to whether the amount of work you have to put in is worth it to you.
Are our lives predestined? Yes, I think that that is one of the fundamental principles of astrology in general. I tend to think that it is only our conditioning as modern people that live in a humanistic society that really leads us to reject this notion of predestination, even though it is one of the basic principles that we base our astrology on and the astrology itself seems to intimate that this is indeed the case. Of course this statement needs to be qualified, but still…
I tend to think that it is only our conditioning as modern people that live in a humanistic society that really leads us to reject this notion of predestination, even though it is one of the basic principles that we base our astrology on and the astrology itself seems to intimate that this is indeed the case.
Depends which kind of astrology, though, doesn’t it? I am quite fond of the free-will-psychological-astrology school myself but then again that’s not particularly predictive and I’ve never experiemented with how accurate astrological prediction is.
I just want to know that, are marriages really made in heaven?
More like purgatory. 😉
Is it fixed from before who is going to marry whom astrologically or some times marriages can be made and broken by human choices?
And is it possible that a girl A is “made” for a boy B, but somehow ends up in marrying another boy C?
I know that in India all these ideas are quite powerful because marriage is very important, as is marrying the right person, as is having astrological compatibility between the charts.
As a Western astrologer I have a fundamentally different view, which is all about free will and free choice.
As for destiny – I’ll give you a personal example. I grew up with two clairvoyants (people who have visions of the future) and they proved remarkably adept at predicting events years in advance (For instance they told my mother -who thought it was nonsense- about my father – and all kinds of random series of circumstances conspired to bring her to that meeting point). They also told my mother she was pregnant (me!) when all the tests in the hospital said she wasn’t and so on. Sometimes remarkable things happen to us (and seem destined to do so) – but the crux is this – they are neither necessarily comfortable nor pleasant.
My mother and I have a very strained relationship and have to work very hard on it. My mother and father felt themselves to be soulmates and loved each other deeply and passionately and intensely but their marriage was not a happy one. They hurt each other, and let each other down, although they also fundamentally remained friends and had a hard time letting each other go. On the other hand the man my mother got together with after my father died was someone she had known since her early 20s and with whom she had always considered herself incompatible with – but after the stormy relationship with my father she realised he was exactly what he wanted and they are very happy together eve now, eleven years on.
My point is – I think the biggest mistake people make is to assume that just because you recognise someone as a soulmate, or think it’s destiny, that that’s a good thing. Love is only the beginning. It still has to be filtered through the flawed and cracked lens of our own beliefs and expectations and damages and behaviour.
It is not enough to have destiny, and even if something is ‘destiny’ it doesn’t mean that is forever. Sometimes your destiny if you want to call it that is about meeting someone who helps you make a turning point (as Elsa’s saga of the special forces soldier is a testament to) and letting each other go.
Also I don’t think there’s a perfect compatibility chart. Two people might look perfect astrologically, but if they meet they’ll have no spark because you need a bit of squares/oppositions a bit of tension and energy to keep things going. With any relationship, any marriage, any cohabitations there are challenges. Also, people live out their natal charts in different ways so there’s no guarantee that Boy B would be in any way a better match than Boy C and so on.
“Marly presupposes that the natural position for growth is comfort.”
This is not what I was saying at all, satori. Please don’t make assumptions about what I think. It’s offensive.
I agree with Satori and Chris Brennan wholeheartedly! Astrology is based on the theory of the soul living out it’s need for evolution and enlightenment in a very materialistic plane….it has nothing to do do with the vehicle although the media (and society) would have one believe differently.
I believe that there are no “accidents” or “coincidences” when it comes to living. Everyone whom we meet and sometimes mate with is just the person we need at that moment in time for our, and perhaps their, spiritual growth.
I’ve been married more than once and each relationship has taught me meaningful, life altering changes in perception and attitude.
What I have gained through these turbulent relationships far outweighs what others, or myself, may percieve as my “loss”.
I believe we CHOOSE our life long before we live it…..even the ones with no happy endings.
While it is indeed very tragic the lives Marly so eloquently speaks of it is nonetheless quite strikingly beautiful the sacrifice these souls make to assist in the evolution of humanity.
Ah, Nia! I have thought of this, too, how one can recognize another as a soulmate and it is not necessarily a good thing (if one is speaking of something general like a romantic relationsip).
I have a dear, dear friend who I have an incredible attraction to. I am just in love with her, and believe me, so is everyone we meet (Cancer Sun, Pisces Moon, Leo Rising–a beautiful combo)!
Recently I had a dream in which she was my teacher. It was so nice to tell her about it, too. She teaches me a lot, that’s for dang sure. Love really is just the beginning.
Gotta agree with Marly. I don’t think any soul chooses to live in a warzone, or a despotic nation, or a hellhole. For what purpose would a soul do that? A child in the Sudan whose nose is cut off is going to grow old and think fondly of their sacrifice? Or a girl in Yemen having acid thrown in her face for studying math. Will she find it necessary for the sake of humanity? Just how many tragic types need to come to earth just for “humanity to evolve?” I personally find that ridiculous.
Yes, we definitely grow from tragedies in our lives. But in the U.S., and in many developed parts of the world, it is because we are allowed to grow. Because we have choices, on how we respond to tragedy. In third world, undeveloped wartorn nations, most citizens don’t have any concept of choice. What a waste of life, in my opinion. Not beautiful at all.
I agree with Marly and CardinalAngles. It’s hard for me to believe that we choose our life or life path though I’ve heard this thought from quite a few people that I admire.
I’ve wondered if instead of there being free will or some sort of sovereignty/fate over everyone, there are some people who do have complete free will and others whose lives are predestine. Is that possible? And maybe some people only have specific points in their life that are pre-determined and would therefore have a myriad of options or roads to take in order to get there?
Depending on the type of astrology you ascribe to, the planets and their energies can give you a description of who you already are and are becoming or who you have the potential to be. If you can see good/evil in a chart (which I think that you can), then I’d completely ascribe to believing that our natal charts describe who we are, not just our potential.
Yes, very well possible and even likely. This is the answer to both questions.
I believe as Jamie does that our free will is exercised long before we are born. We choose the life we will lead, including every detail of persons, places, events, etc. Free will, once we are here living our chosen life, is important in how we deal with the circumstances, relationships, etc. that we set up beforehand. It is how our soul evolves and grows. So in that way, predestination is correct and so is free will. It’s an awesome system. The spiritual assistance we get before and after our births is another story, but is part of the whole of our existence, which is eternal. Yes, I believe in a divine creator.
wow nice dialogue. Thanks Elsa.
Wow, this is an amazing dialogue. I don’t have an answer, but to the point that Marly was making, I think there is a deeper reaction to the worst violence that people experience. I’ve met people in my past work who experienced horrific things, as Marly discussed. They have still sought to bring meaning to their current lives, and even worked to transform what they went through in one way or another. I don’t know about choosing that life before we are born, though, but who really does…
On the flip side, it made me a wreck spiritually to be that close to such pain, even though those who went through this were handling it in their own way. It’s very hard to grasp, or want to understand at a deeper level. This isn’t to idealize the people I have met. It’s just a testament to how humans, after a certain amount of time, work to transform their experiences and pain. And they still have to take care of bills, dishes, their children… they are still human.
I believe astrology can be a huge help in aiding us to know ourselves, and one another, better. And it can warn us of the unseens forces at work in the universe and so guide to excercise our free will positively.
I do not think we are predestined to anything, least of all whom we marry. Asian religious systems do hold such beliefs, and this permits them to cling to the system of ‘arranged marriage’ which can result in repeated rape and abuse of women. Predestination also in a sense absolves individuals of responsibility for their own choices and actions. It’s a symptom imo of authoritarian and patriarchal social systems.
Like belle said : ”I’ve met people in my past work who experience horrific things. They have still sought to bring meaning to their current lives, and even worked to transform what they went through in one way or another.”
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Whatever horrific obstacle we may have, it is up to us how to deal with it. We could stand behind it crying,we could stand there kicking it, we could be thinking ways to take revenge, we could wish that someone else is having the same obstacle. Personally I dont believe these are the solutions.
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I know someone who grew up, moving between different foster homes. He met horrible people through out the years(mistreating,stealing,violence,beating, alcohol, drugs).
Now as an adult,.? He manage to take himself out of these situations. -> He now have 2 children that he loves. He brings money and food to his family,he is taking care of them,he bought a beautiful house for them ,and he spends all his free time with them. HHe chose not to block his children with the same obstacle he had when he was younger.
I am not saying that it is easy, I am just saying that it is possible to stop it from moving through generations. At the end, it comes out as our individual free will
meaning, substance, reasons to change, move on, stay, live with it, adapt… its life. We make our soulmates from what we have lived through and learned. Or not.
I agree with everyone, even if different viewpoints have been posted, I think there can be an underlying system which makes all them consistent.
First of all, as eternal souls, I do believe we come to material plane many times to evolve, so there is reincarnation according to me. This makes things more understandable. If we had only one life to live, no one us would agree to be born into difficult circumstances. But if you know you have to come to class everyday as a student (class being mother earth), we would accept having some difficult courses some days of the week, and some fun activities the other days. Each of us have to learn all these courses. You may hate math and enjoy art class, but you have to go through each course, either in the same day or in different days. I think of myself as an ambitious student, I think i enrolled for having all relationship classes in one day, that seems mylife lesson so far. Maybe I wanted to get over with it in one life 🙂 Some others’ lessons are more balanced, a little bit of this and that each life.
so if you think of life this way, maybe people born into horrible circumstances are the brave and strong, and maybe a bit ambitious souls who agreed to face those very difficult life lessons in one life. And people with more comfortable lives may have already gone through the difficult courses in previous lives, or they will go through in next lives.
Hence, overally, there is justice, balance, and all is well. But at any given point in time, life may seem very cruel and unfair. We dont have the whole picture, our perceptions are only restricted to this life’s timeline. If we knew how things would evolve, how we would mature over an infinite span of life, then difficulties wouls seem as just stepping points. At each life, we only see a cross section of the person’s infinite life.
I think this is true because my father’s dementia demonstrates how he has no overview.
I think that everything is predestined.
Okay, if you believe in the law of attraction you cannot also believe everything is predestined. Same thing if you believe in the law of karma, which you said you did. In order to recieve karma, we have to act on our own free will, we have to make choices, otherwise god is just punishing us all for the heck of it.
But the law of attraction means predestination? How would you choose that a certain person, who you don’t even know before, should enter your life?
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Karma usually (there are other definitions too) means that if you set up a cause, then you’ll experience a consequence. You can’t choose to experience no consequence.
Karma does not have to be created of free will. You are technically born with Karma.
The real question is do you have an infinite number of choices? Because if you don’t and you know that your choices are within a particular scope then one could say that your choices are predetermined. This goes back to religious, theological topics, creation mythos whether Greek or Hindu.
You make me wonder what choices means. To my understanding we first explore whether we have options and how many. Then do we compare them. Finally we decide for the best option. Always for the best option and not for some other option only to prove that there’s no predetermination, but only for the best option. This is what I understand by ‘choice’.
Technically if you dont recieve all of the karma you should have recieved in prior lives, you will get it in your next life. Thats how karma works. So in that sense you can be born with karma and it be due to your own action or intentions.
Even desire creates karma, not just action per se – but an *intent*. We can’t be free of karma until we have no more desires.
I see where you are coming from regarding choices but the thing is that what we experience on this plane of existence is an illusion so its pretty hard to explain how or why because we would have to explain it in terminology and language that came from it. Its difficult for us stupid humams to explain something that is all things at once. Its really only what we believe it is. Belief is the only thing that exists really because nothing is real on the earth plane.
Theres an aspect of our eternal being that is always making choices for us. It appears to this personality to be coming from the outside, but its all inside. Ultimately the question of wether or not things are predestined is not as important a question to ask as “who am i really?” Find that out and this question just kind of melts away. Because thats what we really want to know when we ask about destiny. Its asking, where do i fit in here?
Yes, this is really my question. Where do I fit in here? This seems to mean endless research. Currently I’m examining the asteroids conjunct my midheaven…
In my opinion that’s a very relativist perspective.
Kind of ‘There are no rules because I would prefer to believe there are not’.
If every single area outside dating has these rules, such as life paths how one decision is better than another, then dating would also.
If one partner is better than another for an individual, then either free will exists or it does not. The person has to have the opportunity to reject said partner even if it is their ‘soul mate’.
‘I don’t think our lives are predestined. We’re constantly presented with choices and the choices we make lead to other sets of choices and so on.’
But what else is this than a predestined life? I see no difference…
ELSA, this is te one of the most valuable posts that I read from you. COMMON SENSE!! This describes freedom on a simple way. And that makes it gold. For me I think this not only works for mariage but for far more things in life.
This is really wonderful Elsa, thank you so much.
I think my lessons may be predestined, as shown by my chart, but my choices are not. We continue to create karma as we live it. So there may be a type of partner I meet over and over until I get it right. Maybe he resembles a parent I need to work my issues out with, or maybe someone from the past (or a past life, if there is one). But I don’t believe there is only one person in the universe who is meant to be my partner.
I say that life is and isn’t.
Many religious mythos have the idea the God/Allah/Gaia/etc., separated a part of themselves and ensured that they new “person” did not remember where they came from, aka., their previous life, for if they did then they wouldn’t participate in the new world they live in. They have choices, but they are limited for the true Gods always intervene in some way or another, giving some aide.
Something similar I believe is happening here: there are choices to be made, but they are limited and we have help along they way.
Joseph Campbell wrote a book called “A Hero with a Thousand Faces” than can explain that in much greater detail than I.
‘Because most everyone, when asked if they would trade their life for the life of some other another person, say no.’
I would want the life of some other people. But I’m not low enough to give anybody mine.
I feel the same way.
If everything is predestined then why do we try at all? If god (a sovereign being) made everything predestined he is one extremely boring mofo. What is he just up there watching the movie he already saw because he made the damn thing…all this damn time…for what? Seems like a waste of time to me.
Of course we try because this is predestined too. For this it is very useful to have us believe in free will. Even when I say that I don’t believe in free will, then this is nothing more than a rational conclusion. I agree with the Israeli philosopher Isaac Bashevis Singer: ‘We have to believe in free will. We have no choice.’ So why all this? You say yourself that everything here on the earthly plane is an illusion. So the answer can’t be found in the earthly plane. The answer is that the world is here for the and because of the spiritual plane.
This is a very nihilistic approach and a dead end. It’s up to you to decide why try at all. There’s a quote that goes, ” You have to be smart enough to know how to play the game, but not smart enough to realize that it doesn’t matter.” I believe that is from a football coach Mr. Bear.
Plus, I doubt there’s anyone watching this movie only. They/he/she/it is watching, not watching, planning, not planning, breathing, not breathing, etc. To me, gods live on a different level and assuming they act as we do is already wrong.
I dont think it’s wrong to think that god acts as we do. I think we are god in some sense, at least spiritually speaking. Or you could say god lives in us or works through us, but to me, god is not a sovereign being overseeing all of us. No, all is one..god is in us all. Therefore, to me, god does not live on a different kevel… thats an illusion. It has to be if all is one.
Level*
One has to believe in the contradictory nature of life. One cannot understand cold without hot, or light without dark. Oppositions are not mutually exclusive, they are the same thing, just that we humans see them here on this plane in a different perspective.
Meaning that all is one, and yet all is not one, or one is not all. That again doesn’t mean that it’s an illusion. Look beyond. Perceiving is believing. It’s there and our senses tell us so. I still chose to play this game and not think that it’s pointless because it’s really fun and I’ve much to learn before moving on.
I suggest reading Alan Watts, Carl Jung, and perhaps venturing into Podcasts by Ram Dass or Duncan Trussell, Stanley Krippner.
I use the term “nihilism” because stating that it’s all an illusion is a dead end way of thinking, depressing. It sweeps away any notion of purpose.
Saying all is an illusion does not mean life has no purpose. Not sure where you’re coming from anymore or where you think I am coming from.
I still believe all is one, and you are tallimg about duality -opposites as you call it – it’s an illusion.
I have researched quite a bit.
The illusion is duality, time and matter itself.
Youre right that duality is separate but together. Catholics call it the holy trinity.
Oh sorry i realized how it probably makes no sense to say duality is the trinity. Duality is not all there is to the trinity, no obviously there’s ome more part. But my point is that all are one and all are god- t they are seperate but together
But you did say that since all is illusion then nothing matters. I’m reading that above.
And the Holy Trinity is not about oppositions. It’s God, the son and the holy spirit which are 3 “separate” items but from the same source.
Time is the measure of physical change. You then say that change is an illusion. This is where I bring in duality again, because it is an illusion and it isn’t. Things die, and yet they don’t because energy is infinite, so the death is the illusion, but not the energy.
Never said nothing matters. I dont believe in predestination.
This is why its hard to talk about such things. I mentioned that. Lost ya … see ya around
Ah, a polytheist?
Ah, a pantheist.
Ah…no
You never make any sense.
‘No, all is one..god is in us all. Therefore, to me, god does not live on a different kevel…’
I guess that the last word meant level. All not my words, but a good definition of pantheism. (By the way something, I would agree with.)
I think we have free will but one way or another, if we have a date with destiny, it will work that way. Both my wife’s and my natal chart narrative insisted we’d marry a foreigner but we didn’t read this until we’d already been married ten years. Certainly neither was looking for it. With that said, I don’t think I had to marry the particular foreigner I did. If I’d gone to Germany or Korea (Field Arty) then I could easily have ended up with someone from there. If my parents had settled in Raton, NM after their honeymoon, what are the odds that I could have met someone immigrating from south of the border? One way or another, it appears at least, that it was a done deal. Just one example.
By the way, it is the US-American practice of death penalty, which convinces me of predestination. The candidates are kept ten, fifteen, or twenty years in prison before they’re executed. Why raising the costs this way? Why isn’t the thus created opportunity not at least used for a review, when the anger of involved people has ceased? This seems to me like nobody is in control of anybody else’s life, even if in the position to sentence others to death. Although this convinces me, it is still only logic conclusion and not something, which I could base many of my own actions on. There I have to follow the laws of physics, biology, and psychology.
This conversation is predestined.
My friend Ian had a crisis in his life & went from London on a break to Copenhagen to get some respite. He hired a bicycle and was riding along when a red traffic light stopped him. He turned his head and his eyes met the eyes of a lovely Danish girl. Before he could speak to her she cycled off. A fortnight later he went to a party. There was the girl….They’ve now been married 25 years and had two sons. When you meet them and their boys it’s tricky not to feel their meeting was destined. The story makes it feel their marriage was somehow PREdestined. Matt x