Do you think it’s generational? Cheating is more accepted?” I asked my husband.
“Well, yeah it’s more accepted. Back when I was young it was not accepted. Like if I’d have cheated on you when we were teenagers, I’d have been berated for it.”
I was shocked. ‘Really?”
“Hell yeah. Speedy?” He named his other friends from back in the day. “That would not have been tolerated at all. It would have been looked down upon,” he added to clarify. “Someone would have said something.”
“I am surprised.”
“Why?”
“I don’t know. Bunch of young men. Soldiers.”
“Yeah, well none of the people I knew were like that. We were in missiles. We were a bunch of intellectuals. You can’t be a dummy and do our job but really it was just different back then and if I’d have cheated on you, someone would have said something about for sure. They’d have not liked it nor approved of it.”
“Okay, well I’m just surprised. Soldiers and all…”
“Well, I’ve never really been around men like that. I mean there have been some. I have had men like that in my platoon but I never hung around them. I never respected them either,” he added.
I agree, while people have always cheated it is more prevalent and accepted these days but I think there are still exceptions. For example I bet my son is not a cheater and my husnand’s son is also not a cheater either. It’s obvious his wife has nothing to worry about it.
Here’s the thing that gets me: Everyone seems to want a relationship like Patrick Swayze has. Or like Paul Newman had, or like Paul and Linda McCartney had. Do you think these people got these relationships by letting other people penetrate them?
And here’s the other thing that gets to me: Why do people think just because they have an experience – EVERYONE has the experience? Don’t you notice like attracts like? How do the pot smokers always find each other, hmm? Did the soldier not find another soldier, in the gym? Did he not find another stand up man? He did!
Not everybody does “it” whatever “it” may be. You may do it and your friends may do it but I may not do it and chances are the people in my circle are going to be like me.
Personally, I don’t like men to flirt with me. It drives me right up a wall. I go the gym, I want to work out and I do not want to entertain flirting men. I am not flattered or anything else by the attention, as a matter of fact I am annoyed beyond belief and if I didn’t have Libra I would punch them right in the nose for wasting my time.
I don’t think they are interesting… in fact I would rather watch tv then stand there and endure some guy’s flirting and seeing as I have not watched tv in… a decade, that ought to tell you just how boring I think it is.
I am not trying to piss anyone off. I am just trying to show people there are other points out there where human beings live and thrive that are very remote from their own locations and or realities.
As my friend, Ben once said, “This is a big world. Surely there is enough room for someone like me…”
Saturn says to Uranus, there may be a group mind. But some of us are going to maintain our integrity regardless of what the people next to us do.
By that I mean, you all are free to flirt and be non possessive or anything other thing you may want to do but I am going to be very possessive and maintain a closed relationship even if it is out of style because to me, this is the only way I will ever get and have the things I covet.
Do you feel that some of us were suggesting your way of being is wrong? I think it’s great that you are in a relationship that is a perfect match of two people who value the same kind of partnership.
Is there pressure on people in traditional relationships to be different than they are? Because I feel a tremendous amount of societal pressure to be discrete and sort of in the closet about who I am. I fall outside of societies norms in so many ways.
oh hm. i forgot about the saturn-uranus opposition. i wonder if it’d have greater significance in my chart because my chart ruler is saturn? But my natal moon is being squared by transiting pluto and natal chiron is being opposed by it as well.. all sorts of ouchy transits going on so it’s hard to distinguish.. i can say for myself that there are a lot of raw nerves up in the air right now.
“Do you feel that some of us were suggesting your way of being is wrong”
No. I feel people project their experience and reality on to other people which is extremely disrespectful of the other people.
To elaborate, I really do hate men who bother me in the gym. I have bitched endlessly about this over the years, satori can testify.
The man I like is the ranger, who says its good to see me and then asks about my husband in a way that respects our relationship. I like boundaries, see? I like the living shit out of boundaries (Saturn) which has now become the radical (Uranus) position.
Do you think I was disrespectful? I don’t think I was but I’m feeling a little confused by the topic at this stage. I don’t think I project but I have felt a little defensive.
I feel confused because I am a person of extreme integrity who respects diversity. I would never suggest someone be other than they are or judge them for being different.
But perhaps I’m taking this more personally than I should. I have integrity AND I like to flirt when it seems welcome. (I have Scorpio so it is never overt.)
I also know there is a great deal of mutual respect between you and I so I’m working on understanding this conversation.
Lupa, it was nothing you said. I did not react to anything you said and even if I did, I would know to set it aside. Come on. Me and you go back a ways, yanno?
But for the record, absolutely not. I do not feel disrespected by you in the least.
I am just in trouble with this thread all the way around and don’t have the brain cells to sort it out.
For those of you who missed it which is probably most of you – our dog is dying, I had some work done on the house, I saw my daughter today and I have been in intense communication with my sister regarding things of intense nature,
I really can’t track all this right now… I mean on top of all this I am supposed to be working on SPREADSHEETS so we can keep this blog and the dispatch afloat. Spreadsheets and Elsa P have no affinity.
I hope people can grok this. I am not out to get any of you, I am trying as always to cope with my life – a life that would leave each and every one of you with your jaw on the floor so hey:
Thy John Prine, maybe.
You forgive us… we’ll forgive you.
and ps – if your comments go in the trash, this is also not personal. It’s just happens around here and I am powerless to do anything about it especially when I am actually trying to get some sleep… er, overnight.
Last, I never said anyone did not have integrity. I said I was going to maintain mine which includes no remark on anyone else’s.
Do you think I have time to judge another person’s integrity? Yer dreamin’.
And btw I wouldn’t like being hit on in the gym regardless of my relationship status so I get that. I have really good boundaries and am very good at respecting boundaries of other people.
(what’s the opposite of projecting? I think I’m taking on stuff that is meant to be general.)
Lupa, you’re defending but I am not attacking. Matter of fact I’m going to bed.
internalizing?
Yeah… not one thing I have said was directed at you personally. Try to go back and read with this in mind and you will see it is true.
Yeah I know. I just got tangled up in it.
You’ve got truck loads of credit with me and hopefully you’ll forgive my internalizing and whatever I’m doing here. 🙂
Don’t you notice like attracts like? How do the pot smokers always find each other, hmm>>>>>>
I know what you are saying here- that birds of a feather flock together. Don’t impose your values or lack thereof on others.
Interesting b/c younger people now ‘hook-up first and date and have commitment’ after the fact – so things are very different in so far as sense of commitment.
And I’m glad you bring this up. I never understood cheating. I only have one girlfriend who was naive enough to tell me she was going out with a married man – my response was , what is wrong with you? Are crazy?
And maybe this is another slant on what you are asking but I was never cheated on. And I thought this had something to do with my consciousness. What I projected. I had this, I guess, naive view of myself like — well , I just don’t attract that b/c I don’t put it out there.
So a few weeks ago I find I was cheated on in an epic way. Prolifically.
And surprisingly I’ve actually woken up in the middle of the night thinking – oh great– now i attract this? Cheating? What is this about?
Like attracting that experience, even on an unconscious level has some how diminished me in some way. It’s some how activated some sense of shame I think.
It’s something I’d never experienced – and now i have. And i’m trying to make sense of ‘how someone got into my circle like that’. 🙁
(((blushing)))
I get you and I have been thinking a lot about this. That’s all I do, think about relationships. I like and admire your way and I just don’t know if I can have that way. It’s good to know there’s room for everyone in this world. Speaking of like attracting like, did you notice there are a number of us women who have popped up in the comments and seem to be similar ages with similar questioning about what fidelity and relationship is? I wonder what it is that’s drawing us, specifically.
and MzScarlett, I’m really sorry to hear that. 🙁 I don’t think it reflects on you at all.
No offense to anyone on this particular blog but if you know how to find music on the computer ( I don’t) Listen to the band…Erasure / the song… Psychological Drama/ third track on their WILD CD… and dance.
“Interesting b/c younger people now ‘hook-up first and date and have commitment’ after the fact – so things are very different in so far as sense of commitment.”
From my and my friends’ experiences, this still mostly backfires- the whole commitment after sex before getting to know each other. I think women in my generation are relearning this in our twenties-we’ll call it common sense also eventually. We just are raised in this way that labels emotions as a weakness, but I think there’s only so long you can ignore the heart before it drives you crazy and forces you to see what a commitment requires.
Sorry if I seem off topic, but I’m just talking about what I keep on hearing from older ppl here- that there are more cheaters and more sex before commitment. There is more sex, but the commitment is just as hard to come by because well, it’s real! I think people just talk more about their dirt. Reality TV, celebrities, internet,whatever- there’s just too much info everywhere, and it’s all so “look at me i’m having hard times save me” that I think it seems like everyone’s slutting around. Look at celebrity interviews now- it’s a great PR move to talk about the darker things. I think women my age are wising up- we’ve just been raised with too much stupid influences- but, in the end, the heart does win- how long can you be lonely and “cool,” you know? And this is not anything against flirters- it’s just talking about the feeling that there’s more actual cheaters- I don’t think there are. There’s just more talk of cheaters and why they do this or that.
And MzScarlett–I’m so sorry, and I would also like to say that it’s not your fault-hope you’ll get through this okay.
What if Scott called you up and asked you to spend (innocent) one-on-one time with him, Elsa? Is this crossing the line?
I agree completely. Men still flirt with me, but nowhere near as much as they used to, well, of course, I am older now, but I can still turn some heads (thank God lol). The reason is my body language, I am shut-down in that respect, I am not looking for other male attention. You either respect your relationship, commitments, and vows, or you don’t.
As far as it being “more acceptable”, well guess it is a generational thing, because my friends and I, when I was in my early 20’s, none of us were looking to “hook-up” – I can assure you, we were looking for boyfriends, relationships, etc. Back then, the girl who slept around had a “reputation” – I realize that line of thinking is not around today. But I see my teenage son, and his girlfriend, they have been together a year now, and they are definitely in looooovvvveeeee lol, my son is not, and will never be, a “player”, is not his personality, not at all.
heart –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX37rIFf9Tg
or the lyrics
What a HOOT! I’d never seen the video…what a way to start the day. Thanks Elsa.
“What if Scott called you up and asked you to spend (innocent) one-on-one time with him, Elsa? Is this crossing the line?”
For the soldier? Yes, probably and I would defer to that. I guess it’s pretty much like this: He’s my husband and you don’t want to deal with him / accept him and respect him, then fuck you!
That last (fuck you) is just how we talk. The point here is we (neither of us) is going to allow anyone to undermine our relationship in any way.
Do you invite Joanne Woodward and tell her leave Paul at home? That’s crazy. Those two are (were) together, they made it plain and anyone who for whatever reason could not see that and respect it would have to be stupid.
It would be like calling the soldier’s son and inviting him somewhere and saying, “leave your wife at home.” Are you crazy? He’s not going to want to do that. THEY will come or they will not come but THEY have no interest in not being together.
I think this is easy to understand if you understand that some people really love each other. They love the living shit out of each other – they are with their favorite person on the planet, the person who makes them feel good so trying to do anything that separates them is going to be met with a slap down.
“Hey Elsa, come to dinner with me and leave your arm at home.”
“Whaaat? No thanks.”
Oh, and Lupa? You’ve done nothing that needs to be forgiven. I just wrote that John Prine thing in a stupor last night.
I am going to the gym this morning, I’ve not been able to go in more than a week when I am used to going 4-5 times a week so I am a little bent. No doubt this will clear my head some.
Another storm and I think we all pulled through it. Whew!
The projection is that everyone is bored in their relationship or wants more or different. Those of us who state otherwise are not to be believed, in denial, repressed or some other such thing when what is really happening, is we’re deeply in love and our love takes this kind of form.
The ranger wants to run with the soldier. The soldier says “Come to the house” and the reason is because while he wants to spend time with him, he does not want to lose time with me and I am telling you there are tons of couples just like us and age is not a factor. The soldier’s son is exactly the same and I bet you anything my son will also be like this. We love our love, that’s all there is to say.
When we were kids, the soldier used to ride on the motorcycle together to go get groceries. Nobody wanted to go and leave the other to go do this so we had to go together even though it was hazardous
https://elsaelsa.com/astrology/2007/04/12/the-soldier-and-p-45-grocery-shopping/
“The projection is that everyone is bored in their relationship or wants more or different. Those of us who state otherwise are not to be believed, in denial, repressed or some other such thing when what is really happening, is we’re deeply in love and our love takes this kind of form.”
Yeah I totally get this. Even though I have an odd relationship that (I feel) is impossible to describe, we are very contained emotionally. And even in my bad past relationships I’ve never been bored. I’ve been starved for touch, frozen out and just plain pissed but never bored and have never had the slightest inclination to cheat.
The idea of being bored in relationship makes me think of what parents like to tell bored kids. If you’re bored you must be boring. Go be more interesting. (Where interest means engage your partner within the boundaries of your existing relationship – not go cheat.)
Maybe the trend towards being dissatisfied with one’s relationship has something to do with our overstimulated, instant gratification, plugged in society. People are losing the ability to self entertain.
Ah Elsa, you’re verbalizing what I dream of and am quite confident of will happen to me one day: That I will be with someone who does not want to be away from me if he can help it and likewise. I’ve seen this love before – my parents definitely share it and they just don’t factor in that they should attend anything without being together.
What I’ve always wondered when I saw this kind of behavior was whether or not this was a remnant from an older generation. But to hear you talk about you and the soldier AND the soldier’s son seriously brings me joy and happiness. And I don’t find it repressed in any way to want to spend as much time as possible with one’s wife or husband. One should be in a relationship which not only gives you room to nurture your individuality, but you should also feel more like your true self because of the relationship.
Ah I can’t wait to get me some of that 😉
“The projection is that everyone is bored in their relationship or wants more or different. Those of us who state otherwise are not to be believed, in denial, repressed or some other such thing when what is really happening, is we’re deeply in love and our love takes this kind of form.”
AMEN AMEN AMEN!! This is one of my pet peeves. God I hate listening to people who say that the only people who are married are immature codependents who can’t make it on their own, who are so terrified of being alone that they will accept the worst kind of partner just to be married or for financial survival. The ones who act like marriage is so horrible.
And often these are people who have never been married. I’d love to understand why being single is superior. BF and I both liked being married, even though it ended in divorce– we say it all the time. Some people would think it’s delusional and stupid, but we really have become each other’s best friend. We love being together and I would hardly say it’s a weakness.
I’ve always been a completely faithful type, whether married or not, and have no tolerance, zip, zero NONE for a cheating partner. Scorpio rising, Moon sextile Saturn, Venus trine Saturn and Sun square Saturn.
yeah, i am part of a couple, no doubt about it. it pains me to go places without him when he’s around, although i sometimes do if he doesn’t want to go or something. but i totally get this.
and if he were unwelcome somewhere, then so am i, and vice versa. nobody is going to disrupt this, and anyone who tries will get struck down without a second thought.
my dad always told me ‘birds of a feather flock together’…so if you see two people who are the best of friends and you like one person but you can’t stand the other — figure it out because they have _something_ in common. v. true.
i like boundaries but I have issues with them.. I’ve got lots of Neptune influences! I have a traditional view on raising children (rules and regulations) but as of relationship boundaries.. well.. it’s more tricky! I have a 7th house capricorn and 5th house saturn so I know I want someone that will help in teaching me boundaries but I have to understand and have boundaries before I can have anything decent in any type of relationship… it’s hard sometimes!
cheating? & spreadsheets?
i came across this blog @
which gives some data on google & flicker re “cheating”. data seem to suggest it’s going UP.
*
personally, i’m strictly monogamous. i simply prefer to indulge depth of one-on-one relationship to some exciting encounters, that… let’s be real… just replay same same desires/needs/mindset again & again & again & again.
My husband and I both have Venus and Mars in Scorpio. If someone cheats, someone’s getting cut. We have a running joke that there will be no divorce, only a shallow grave. 😉
Song:
The flamingos – I only have eyes for you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63nlhoda2MY
Elsa, thx for sharing, uiiih, country i live in… that’s really a brave woman talking.
@ c.38, Apple: 🙂 i love scorpio 🙂
Mmmmmmmm, yeah, isee this, ithink everybody’s parents divorcing or cheating or having “hidden” porn, normalized such behaviour. Where breaches of boundaries and being “accepting” means to make a better world you have to give people a chance , it happens, human urges, etc. Also, a backlash to religion, and authoritarianism. What people don’t seem to realize is all that “freedom” and forgiveness is sinking their being happy in a relationship. No trust, but it’s cool, still friends. I think the cognitive dissonce, dissociation, and detachment needed to process many of the changes and atrocities happening in the world lend themselves to disenchantment and low standards for relationships.