Last night the soldier and I were discussing our views on karma, comeuppance, the idea of what goes around comes around and so forth. He has very firm ideas around all this which makes him interesting to talk to. Upside of Saturn you could say. It’s like talking to someone who has some authority and is willing to stand on it.
He is of the opinion he’s got a hard road to hoe due bad deeds in past lives and we got to talking about just exactly what it is that constitutes a bad deed. Is it keeping the dollar when a clerk miscounts your change or something much worse? He expressed his ideas on this and at one point used a word that really pricked up my ears. “Anguish”.
He said if you caused someone anguish… “a lifetime of anguish”, specifically then you were going to be in big trouble. I got the idea he was speaking from experience but then I thought of all the people who have caused me anguish. I mean people who have absolutely set out to make my life a misery.
Now I have had this happen many times actually. You could say I am attracting what I put out but you’d be wrong. I am waaaaaaaaaaaay too smart of mess with people in this way. I keep a very close eye on my intentions and I always have because I think I was born knowing that if I fired a gun, there would be a backfire.
So anyway, it occurs to me this is a Pluto in Capricorn topic. I want to make what goes on in the shadow (Pluto) public (Capricorn) so I am going to tell some of these stories. But first a question:
Do you mind your intentions or figure, what the hell? If you do both, give us the ratio. Also, where is Saturn in your chart?
Sometimes I do, and sometimes it is too late the deed is done rashly without thinking. I usually try to live by the motto treat others the way I would want to be treated. I too think that I may have been a bit horrible in my past lives,lol. My Saturn is in Aries in the 11th house in opposition to my Mars in Libra in the 5th. I feel a lot of my karma is focused on relationships, oh and a little in the money area too.
When I was younger I had moments when I relished in making people feel miserable. It was a talent. In time I like to think I saw the error in my ways and mellowed out quite a bit so that now I go out of my way not to hurt people. That’s just in this life. I get the feeling I still have an uphill battle on the overcoming karma front for centuries to come. In fact on that road I helped a beetle get off his back earlier today. Not sure it appreciated the effort, but it’s a little something.
My Saturn is in Libra in the 9th house conjunct Jupiter.
I usually mind my intentions though on a few occasions I have thought “damn the torpedoes.”
8th house aries saturn inconjunct 3rd house scorpio mars. usually I try to transmute the instinct but sometimes it seems appropriate to “cut a bitch.”
I try to make that decision when I’m able to step back and make a measured assessment.
Yes, I have learned to watch my intentions closely and haven’t gone out of my way to cause anyone anguish since I was a teenager. Usually I got smacked with instant karma too. 🙂
Saturn square Sun, sextile Moon and trine Venus.
I try my best. I tend to think the world has enough assholes without my joining in. I occasionally have slipups.
Looking at the nodes in my chart vs. my mom’s, I suspect I was her abusive or ignoring husband in a former life or something, and now I have to pay in this one. All things considered, I don’t think the relationship has improved very much, because I cause her anguish by not giving her what she wants. (Not that I can, mind you, but she’s clearly in pain from it.)
Which leads to another question: what happens with the karma when you cause someone anguish and it’s not intentional?
I think your soldier has it pretty well nailed. It’s like, keeping the extra $1 comes around and smacks you in the head, but literally. Like, getting a run in your stocking at the absolute wrong moment, or tripping and falling on your face. It’s little stuff, you know?
But to torment someone… That’s nasty shit, and it’s gotta come back to you. At least, I hope like hell that it does. My ex has been giving me utter hell lately, and I’m actually PRAYING for him to get a good wallop upside the head – and for it to result in him leaving. me. alone.
I try like hell to mind my motivations and do the right thing, but I know I’ll never be perfect. I try, and I torment myself over it some days, but there’s just no making everyone happy. And honestly, sometimes I get tired of being the doormat and start telling people to piss off at random.
Cap Moon in the 5th house here… Squares Merc & Venus in Aries (8th house) and opposite Cancer Mars in the 11th.
“cut a bitch”….oh satori,…snickers
When a person may not know they are causing anguish to another and it is part of some process (psychological or otherwise)does that need to attract a karmic response? I can understand when someone goes out of their way to organise acts unto others that result in anguish to them, like the Twin Towers.
In my mind “causing anguish” is really about ones anger and hate.
kingsley
M- I have the cap moon square all that too. it’s so funny you should say that about praying for a good wallop… when I was writing I was thinking about the REALLY angry things I’d done. I’ve socked somebody once but it’s mainly been Julie Sugarbaker-type verbal stuff. the most intense thing I could think of was when I was soooooooo evilly angry that I consciously sent someone horrible, horrible mean bad energy. now that I write that out, wow it sounds like throwing popcorn at someone.
venusflytrap– heh heh, thanks. I’m so down. ::throwsbenfoldsstyegangsign::
yeah JuliA Sugarbaker (Dixie Carter, Designing Women, my hero).
I can hear the rant now! I loved when Julia would get on those rolls.
I used to be completely unaware of what I was doing, then came my Saturn return and a couple of years with a really good therapist and I saw how I was an intregal part of the game. So now I try to be very conscious of what I say (my verbal knife is much more deadly) and try my best to keep it reined in unless I think it will protect someone less able to protect themselves. However….there are days when it gets away from me. But anguish, I’m not focused enough for that.
A few years back I broke up with a lover and parting shots were fired from both sides. Furious, I decided to make a wax image of my ex and stick pins in it. Getting any kind of a likeness was next to impossible and it looked like a cross between Bigfoot and Frosty the Snowman. The hot wax stuck to my fingers and I ended up juggling with a sticky blobby mess that didn’t want to let go. The ex and I are now the best of friends, incidentally, though there may be a Sasquatch somewhere walking with a limp… 🙂
P.S. I have Saturn square the Sun. Can’t get away with anything. Obviously. 🙂
One of the most painful lessons I’ve learned in this life is that sadly, the karma of someone who has fucked me over is not my issue.
Oh, and I’ve comforted myself in the past with “They’ll get theirs!” but no longer…that’s a mug’s game. 🙁
I mind my intentions %90 of the time. The other %10 count for the times when I thought “Well you don’t mind your intentions, so why should I?”
(and for me, that kind of plays into the Playing Decider on others’ karma…)
When I started my legal battle back in 2002 (with Pluto conjunct my natal 12th House Neptune) I told myself “if I don’t see justice in this, it might be for something in the next life, to see justice then”
The end result was that I did NOT see justice and I’m in the position to accept my initial “philosophy” (which was actually a Saturn/Neptune coping mechanism; Or, I an revamp my view on karma?
An interesting note: the man who screwed me sideways in my legal battle ended up being a Virgo: actually, he had 4 planets in Virgo.
So, Saturn visited him and he got away with everything, and I got screwed.
To me this is the perfect illustration of the greater mysteries of life such as: his karma isn’t my problem. My own karma is.
I’m a live-and-let-live kinda gal, honestly. As long as someone’s not messing around with me or mine, I have no problems with whatever reindeer games they play. However, if someone horns into my circle with malicious intent (and woebetide them if they choose me for a target), I will fire at them without qualms. I’m sorry but, karma or not, no one has the right to pull that crud. Like miss said, I also try super-hard to live by the Golden Rule; if someone’s breaking it on one of mine, though, I’ll break it off in their ass. 😉
I forgot I was going to say:
Watching “Designing Women,” my family always points at me and laughs when Julia goes off. Apparently there’s a slight resemblance. 😀
I loved Designing Women, and Julia was always my favorite. So calm, cool, and dignified, but man, if you made her mad you were gonna get it! 😀
I always treat other people as if – if I did something wrong I now they’ll never forgive me or forget it – because this is how I am and act. I may not tell you but your bad deed will stay with me forever. SO I always think that others may be as unforgiving as me, therefore, I always treat them the way I want to be treated, with Respect.
Saturn in cancer in the 8t (involved in a “lovely” t-square: opposition sag. moon in the 2nd and square pluto in the 11th).
About karma: what if bad things don’t happen to a person because they were “bad” but because this person wants to learn all different perspectives of life and therefore Asks, before birth, that “bad” things happen? Like, for example, a child stolen. If you are that child – you got that perspective, but after growing up and someone kidnapps your kid, you’ve got another perspective and if that kid is found, alive and well, after 15 years (I’m making this stuff up, ok), living with another family, happily, calling them mum and dad, and not wanting to come back – there’s again another view… and maybe, all these experiences are like a “doctorate” on the subject of a “child stolen” designed not to make you suffer but for your to learn.
Just a thought.
I am very careful of my intentions. I even mind how I think about people because I believe it’ll come out one way or another – in my attitude, what slips off my tongue, in my actions. Form follow thought, right? Maybe it’s my Mercury conjunct Pluto I worry about! I also have Saturn square my Sun – very responsible.
I think it’s really a mix. I can see at the level The Soldier is at that he encountered really evil people and was probably part of their karma. Because in large ways like being evil there is eventually karma because you start pissing off way too many people etc. On a smaller level I tend to think that things just are and they find their own balance. Some people get away with causing others anguish some can’t even step on an ant. It is very relevant to what the individual wants to see in their life. If being caustic to people keeps them alone and being alone is part of their path then I don’t think they will experience karma. We all have our role and one person’s might be the opposite of another. As long as we do things from a point of love then it’s all good.
I’m sure OJ could have avoided his karma if he’d wanted to become a better person after getting away with murder the first time. Pluto would have spared him if he’d transformed. Fact was he didn’t and instead created the circumstances that allowed a just karmic response.
I try to mind my intentions – saturn square sun and mars. But they have gotten away from me or been oblivious to me. I think the karma happens internally. With 12th house planets I’m left in a state of fear for what I can’t see. Yoga helps.
mind my intentions as much as i can. i burned myself pretty good a few times when i was younger and i’ve learned i’m far more likely to be happy if i line up my intentions positively. i may not get what i want, but i find things i’m happy with… and i’d rather not limit my potential for happiness to just what i’m capable of imagining, anyway… the universe is much bigger than that.
and. yeah. i think i understand to some degree where he’s coming from. aries south node brings with it a certain sort of baggage maybe. sometimes i think all my virgo and pisces is service as atonement. not for its own sake but to keep me floating above self loathing.
maybe that’s a little messed up, i don’t know.
my saturn’s in leo in the 11th (on the cusp of the 12th) in aspect to pluto, venus, uranus, mercury, and conjunct pallas.
I used to mind my intentions, but for today It seems like someone can speak so ill of you with such harmful intent that when you were to go and watch whose toes you stepped on intentionally or unintentionally. It goes out the door. People follow the status quote and believe what they are told. It’s the American way. So I now treat people like they are humans. Humans can’t get away with bullshit. I don’t make them pay for anything but I do let them know that I’m not playing, there is no joke to the story.
Soldier is Mars in Pisces? I noted that because I have it too. It’s not all my fault. Getting past the “I’m being persecuted” thing is very key for me. Especially since it’s retro. Overly sensitive. Sometimes people do shitty (oops more bodily function) stuff. It’s about them. I had to get over that. Rise above it. Keep my spirit strong. Many tests give one great strength.
@notch no he is not.
An afterthought: Basically what I’ve been told by those who have not considered me or my work or the collective goal is that it is not about me, it’s not about success for everyone. They have been screaming in my face “it’s all about me.” I just didn’t see it because of my anguish thinking it was all about hurting me.
Yes, I pay close attention to this and pretty much live with a very rigid moral code (Saturn in Sagittarius sq. Sun and Mars in Virgo). I know I probably have some bad karma to work through and that maybe I have been dishonest in the past… because this life, nothing is handed to me and I usually have to work twice as hard to get things accomplished. I guess I have a ways to go with my intentions still… minding my anger at the thought level… but I try to never hurt anybody intentionally, and if I fail in doing so I feel horrendous guilt. I try to follow the golden rules.. do unto others as you would have them do to you… and live and let live. There have been some people have tried to accuse me of being insensitive and probably taken advantage of my easily aroused sense of guilt (mostly controlling types who resented the fact that they couldn’t control me), but I have learned that lesson too… know what is your responsibility and what isn’t. I’m acutely sensitive to pain (moon conjunct chiron) and I can usually feel when I’m crossing some boundaries. The fact of the matter is some people are offended if the wind just blows in their face a certain way, that’s nothing to take seriously.