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Pluto in Capricorn Throughout History

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(@elisa)
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wow thaats really interesting.

and this was back in 2013, discussing about plagues and purges 🙁

i can really feel the big change in the atmosphere, when the sun left capricorn, and aquarius, but it was mostly the huge stellium around winter. when secretly the virus was hitting china back in october november, (Scorpio season,which was going in secret hiding, because the entire world didnt really know and it didnt feel so real then) Sagittarius season, always oblivious, then capricorn, it hit us hard. i was also reading up on Italy, the country that was hit so hard first, Italy has a Scorpio moon. i dont really know what to make of that.

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Crissy
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Is it safe to say we are in the year of 1775

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Elsa
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@crissy ha ha! Interesting point.

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NotMyCircus
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@crissy Last night Mom told me she felt like we were reliving the late 1970's. Middle eastern tension, gas lines, bad economy.

It could be either one! lol

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Elsa
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@notmycircus Yes, this is true too. It has a similar feel and if inflation takes off... well, younger people are going to be SHOCKED.

The fuel is still going up around here as is the food prices. Lumber is still very high.

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Elsa
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BUMP

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soup
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Thanks for bumping this. I remember reading this in 2013. Miss all these people. Look at everything happening real time. Wow. 

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Elsa
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@soup I think a lot of people are in truly crippling circumstances. I talk to people in this condition, daily.

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NotMyCircus
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Shit’s gettin’ real, y’all….this woman’s husband is likely a fed worker who refused the ?. She is speaking in code, as Elsa does. She has to because so many people are being bumped off social media.  

Rumor has it Stivers Homestead is in the same boat.

 

(If the picture looks funny, it’s because she probably used one of those Snapchat filters or something.)

 

 

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as much as pluto capricorn/ stellium in capricorn was during covid years, i had a long thought about the past. Before covid happened, there was  terrible terriorism going on in the entire world. Sometimes i have to look at so many perspectives, and i think sometimes all those staying indoors and restrictions, is a kind of way of "protecting"  everyone. Cap/Cancer axis has that protective /security kind of way of saving those from the bad guys out there. like a big bubble.  I had this conversation about how the USA has much more surveillence and can look into everyone's privacy if they needed to (CIA/FBI) but i think it has gotten so much more ever since the horrific 2001 incident. and a conversation to a sagittarius stellium (my husband) told me you can't protect that way, because that's "fear"  then governments become like the East, or North korea, maybe china. where the citizens have no freedom. But me,having saturn too, thinks, but people need protection. But yet if you live in fear, what kind of life is that too? Sigh. I dont know its so difficult. 

having a strong mutable chart helps me see so many perspectives.

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sophiab
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@elisa It would depend on your perspective of terrorism. Terrorism is both something real and also a concept/tool used by those in power to manipulate people, to create fear and control them.

It is a form of projection, we project something bad onto an other. Similar to the cold war, Russia is bad, the West is good. Now its China, or North Korea, just needs to be some unfamiliar other. Having an obvious enemy relieves inner conflict between what's bad and good inside us. It allows us to be good, without looking deeper. We project want we don't want to acknowledge, violence, aggression, destructiveness, evil.

I think there is evolution at work, whereby people get stuck with themselves and start to acknowledge more of the whole of themselves, including what is deemed ugly, shameful, etc. This process leads to self compassion and forgiveness, because you discover everyone is traumatised, even your traumatisers, so ultimately there is no one to judge or blame. Projection becomes impossible when there is nothing undiscovered to project. We take people as they are. The implications of this longterm are that there would be no energy available for projected conflicts, thus no war.

However, those in power now, are in power due to this narcissistic systemic structuring, based on projection, so they are invested in the status quo. Were talking at a global level, countries vetting their power against other  countries. The history of colonialisation and the rape of global resources.

Those invested in this system continue to create "others", even non human ones, to keep people divided. I think it's a losing battle because once they started on their own public it becomes more transparent as a mechanism.

The change in the system takes place in each individual. It's not something you change externally, but as we have seen, external factors can support people moving towards greater introspection and transforming.

Your query about "where's the terrorism?" is part of this journey! 

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This is so useful @sophiab! If you allow me to riff on this: let's say the antidote to projection is integration. Taking a gander here - and I may be off so correct me - in astro terms, integration would mean Pisces tempered by Saturn - a controlled letting go of that which we have suppressed. Instead of acting out, letting it seep out gently in a contained space, like in therapy (individual level). Or, expressing it through peaceful protest (community level). Or, saying sorry for general wrongs and pledging to stop (both individual & community level), etc 

On that last point about saying sorry, I think when a person apologizes they 'disappear'. At least, when I'm apologizing, I have this sensation that my individuality dissolves away. Sometimes that's what prevents me from apologizing, believe it or not.

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sophiab
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@aquarius-lurker Riff away! I hadn't considered the astrology when writing. I agree integration as a process certainly needs Saturn's influence, but probably as part of a large cocktail of astrological alchemy over many years, at least in this one lifetime.

The Saturn in Pisces transit would perhaps draw attention to those spaces where people can find the right environment for introspection and self knowledge, to pull themselves together again, 12th h places. In many ways those physical spaces are getting harder to locate in the world. Or its spaces where people are put away, out of sight for periods of time like prisons, hospitals, psychiatric units, instructions and boarding schools. I always think of 'One flew over the cuckoo's nest' , where the vulnerable, sensitive inmates, who cannot hide the scars of society's impact were hidden, and also found safety. They seem more human because of their carrying what society hides away, mostly pain and grief. 

12th h is also a gestation period, womb experience, and simultaneously the limbo between the point of death and entering spirit world.

Seems a powerfully fertile and healing place but also somewhere you can get stuck or lost. A regression in some ways, that allows you to start again, but on a different footing. This time taking all of you with you into the world, all the light and dark, not leaving parts behind or hidden, which then can be projected in the attempt to locate them. 

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I'm Aquarius. My instinct says to look at the 12th H but don't go in. To prevent from getting stuck or lost there like you say. E.g. Hang out with mystics but don't smoke or imbibe; just ask questions. Go on a 12th H experiential tour, like to a Holocaust museum or places like the Cape Coast Castle, and then unpack at a discussion circle or write a book on it. Ask AI to build a model, and then learn from it. Et cetera. Surely there must be sterile, less messy ways to embrace our shadow than to have our guts wrenched out each time. Unless I'm wrong? I kinda like my idea though

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sophiab
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@aquarius-lurker I don't believe you can integrate the psyche without feeling things. Which is why it's something that tends to be avoided unless by necessity. Like an outer planet transit lol. 

The idea of disappearing when apologising is interesting. Is apologising humbling to the ego? Like admitting you're wrong about something. 

I have a Pisces Moon, on one level I feel like I don't exist, it doesn't matter to me at all to be some thing personal, a person. But this conflicts with other elements of my chart that do want to be a person.. like Pluto in 1st house. I guess some moments call for the individual and personal, others for the transpersonal, like shifting gears. Do you have placements that conflict with the Aquarius for example? 

 

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@sophiab Lol! One can try.

Conflicts: natal Saturn opposes my Aquarius Ascendant. Could that be something?

Personhood is important to me. Not saying it's right or wrong to place importance on it, it's just how I feel. In that context, dissolving the ego through an apology makes me sad, as if I have lost something. Bizarre I know. I have no planets in the 1sr H, so the pathology lies elsewhere

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sophiab
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@aquarius-lurker It could be Saturn in Leo, if that's the placement you're describing. It would create quite intense fragility and insecurity around the solar self energy, heart based.

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@sophiab I'm a very early Aq rising so Saturn is still in Cancer but only just - 29 deg and 30 mins! But regardless of where the planets are, that is insightful what you said. I will file that away and maybe one day have the gumption to 'feel' it, lol

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sophiab
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@aquarius-lurker I have Saturn in Cancer 2*. 29* Cancer is uber Cancer, with Leo energy also present 🙂 Saturn works both ways, so can both limit/completely block the energy of the sign, and exult it to the max. Saturn is chimerical so can become the thing itself, meaning Saturn in Cancer can be the highest expression of Cancer. So we're talking about... emotions! It's worth looking into. Liz Greene's book on Saturn is very helpful for this planet in sign and house, esp if you're psychologically inclined.

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@sophiab that's totally unexpected! Will check out the Liz Greene.

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@sophiab : I'm resurrecting this old post because I found something that could be an answer - natal moon opposite Mars. Always feeling (moon) defensive (Mars).

p.s. Apologies. I wish it were possible to revisit old posts without having them show up at the top of the forum. There are great & deep convos happening there right now, and I don't mean to digress. 

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Elsa
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@aquarius-lurker fine to bring up old threads.

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sophiab
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@aquarius-lurker Makes sense 🙂 Saturn in Cancer as you say, is ruled by the Moon, so it pays to look at the natal moon and aspects to it.

Saturn in Cancer itself is complex for emotional expression, it's a bit like a Saturn moon aspect. There can be alot of fear about feeling, expressing feelings, and about nurturing, being nurtured. I always think about the crab with its soft interior and very hard shell. This reflects into Capricorn too in regards to dealing with vulnerability. I think it's a really interesting placement but can be painful to resolve. The new moon on Wed/Thurs will square your Saturn so its a good time to think/reflect on it!

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Thanks for the reminder re: moon Saturn square @sophiab ! I'll keep you posted 🙂

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@sophiab 

thanks for that read. 

i have noticed the big change after the pandemic too. and during. pluto capricorn/stellium was very powerful globally, really broke down on all structures and put fear in those who were evil too, or have had evil intentions. You can't trump the devil, but only with good. 

edit also i noticed " fear " can work the opposite, and create scenerios where war is produced.  there's that opposite spectrum.

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