Recently I lost a friend who was dear to me. I don’t spend a terrific amount of time with her, but the time I did spend with her was precious to me. I’m pretty sure she’s gone.
If she is gone, I know the reason for it. A man came into (the periphery) of my life. She told me he was coming. She was so anxious to hear what I thought of him.
I guess she had some type of history with him, but I didn’t perceive this at the time. The nature of our interaction was that we share our views and different perspectives on a numerous, variety of topics. I thought this was more of the same.
When I met the man, I liked him and I said so. I slowly or quickly found out that she did not. I don’t really know which it was. I have Venus square Neptune! But there was a day the veil lifted and I realized this was the case.
Since then, she’s quit talking to me. She may be back, I don’t know. But since then I’ve thought about this and come to realize something.
You can say that a person like this is a control freak. It’s their way or the highway, when it comes to the opinions or beliefs they hold. This may be true, but I’ve realized something else.
If you lose a friend because you don’t hate who (or what) they hate, they probably don’t like you either. Because if they did like you, you’d be allowed your independence.
What do you know about this?
Oh my stars! I have lost three close friends in the last couple of years over this. One left after 25 years because even though I didn’t hold the belief someone else I knew did and I refused to shun them…so out I was sent. Made me realize that this group of “rebel” friends did not appreciate people rebelling against their status quo. It hurt, but I was happy being friends with both people. Reminds me of Civil War lines…blood may be thicker than water, but politics is thicker than blood!
I just can’t stand the idea of being a chicken in a barnyard – all clucking the same thing.
An old man explained this to me when I was a teen. Now I am an old lady trying to explain it to people.
What I know about this for myself is this…
It’s one thing if the issue is a simple distaste or dislike of the person. In that regard I generally hold that it takes all kinds of nuts to make a party mix, and vive la difference and so forth.
If, on the other hand, I have been forthright and forthcoming with a friend that person x has been legitimately hurtful, cruel, dangerous or otherwise demonstrably deserving of my animosity…I would expect that to carry some weight with a friend. And if the friend took up with such a person under those circumstances I would not hesitate to remove myself to a “safe” distance. I would feel let down by my friend, too.
From the way the post is written though, what’s confusing me a bit is that it sounds more like the friend was rather intentionally neutral about the man from the get-go, and only after you’d made his acquaintance and formed an independent opinion did she express her dislike and expect you to follow suit. Nor is it clear if she had a “legitimate beef” or simply didn’t care for him on general grounds.
If that was the case (ie she “floated” the guy past you and was unhappy that you didn’t share her opinion of him, post-facto), I will say that I personally am not keen on being “tested” or used as a litmus test in that manner–about opinions of people or opinions on any other subject for that matter. It seems disingenuous to me and I prefer more candor in my relations.
This is the gal who does not like the (new) priest. She wants everyone to not like him – to join that club. I like him quite profoundly. It’s impossible for me not to like him…or to like him less or anything of that sort.
I mean, I like the guy. That’s the long and short of it. And I don’t care how many people don’t like him or how powerful they are – I like the Spanish priest!
What they don’t like about him is he won’t be bribed. Priests are supposed to cater to wealthy parishioners and he’s not of that ilk. So the campaign is to have the parish lose support – pressure and punish this priest and I am not on board with this at all.
Really, he’s my favorite priest. I have learned in leaps and bounds since he came to the parish, so you see this is an impossible situation.
How am I going to speak against one of the best teachers I have ever had? How am I going to have a bad feeling?
I like people who don’t let others pull their strings. There is just no way I can be in this other camp.
And she did appear to be neutral at first, but this is not necessarily because she misled me. I have seen her as an intelligent person who is fair, etc. So when she said a new priest was coming and she was interested in what I thought of him – I thought that was all there was too it.
But she did not trick me or anything. I think people hang out in their small group that reenforces their views. This was a chance to bring me closer into her group, but what she found out is I am 180 degrees out of whack.
I would have never dreamed that my opinion would have had this kind of impact. I have known her for a number of years. I was chatting away, oblivious to the fact that what I said was not what she wanted to hear.
“If you lose a friend because you don’t hate who (or what) they hate, they probably don’t like you either. Because if they did like you, you’d be allowed your independence. ”
I understand this principle in this particular situation (with the priest that is unpopular) but is there a limit to this? I wonder if there are certain principles in ones life that are foundational and can’t be compromised (especially by those close to them?)
It’s a good point, Jazz.
Some of this is personal to me. I really don’t like fare well with restriction. I essentially grew up in a prison camp and freedom is everything to me.
So if I have to toe a line to be in your camp, I really doubt I have the capacity or the desire.
Oh, yes. Now I have a context and understand better…I’m aware of some of that backstory from earlier posts.
I’m truly sorry to hear it is playing out this way. I understand, too, when you say she wasn’t actively trying to trick you. It might have been nicer though, if she’d thought to share her concerns and engage you from a more candid position. Oh, well. Wish in one hand, spit in the other and… 🙂
Hopefully, as he continues to establish and ground himself as a permanent fixture, she may relent and the pendulum will swing back toward middle.
She may have shared her view early and I missed it. She said he as “pre-Vatican 2 – ish”…stuff like that.
I might have missed her meaning.
She’s a lifelong Catholic, extremely prominent around here. The top of the top.
Meanwhile, I am newbie and quite ignorant. But I know what I like and I like this priest. And he has done nothing – not one thing – that is wrong or out of line.
He just follows God and politics are a distraction to that. He is supposed to take care of everyone, rather than cater to the rich and/or powerful.
I can’t imagine a position I would or could support, more fully.
But this post was to say that if you won’t let a person be themselves – then your love is conditional….and it covers a lot more ground than this little situation. 🙂
Anyway, she may be back. She probably will be back. I hope so, because I miss her.
My neighbors are communists but we have poetry and poultry as a common ground.
LOL!
My husband called me a Communist last night.
“I used to say that when we were young,” he said. “I’d ask you if you were Communist. I don’t live in a COMMUNE, you’d say.” He roared laughing. “That’s, P. That. Is. P!”
Hahaha.
I once lost a friend because a mutual friend turned down an invitation to Easter dinner (she had to put her cat down on Monday and she wanted to spend time with him). I had the audacity to think that was reasonable and refused to get angry, so she derided me to everyone as a “bad friend”, including my own daughter, and quit talking to me. She tried very hard to get my daughter to be on “her” side, but that didn’t work out either. It all felt so third grade.
“Meanwhile, I am newbie and quite ignorant.” That’s such a strength! You haven’t been “brainwashed” into old school sheep ways. Hoorah! =D Once they get their “side” together, I guess they’ll put forward a strong “case” aginst him somehow… their (perceived) power is at stake here!
I wonder what Uranus/ Pluto will do with this?!
I see what you’ve described a couple of times. A friend & I go along in step for an age & then *bang* something happens that you just can’t live with & it’s all over. It’s a shock, because for the most part, you are in agreeance! I think the important bit is to always leave things on good terms… it’s an open return, should things change. Yeah… it’s a shock though!
That’s right. I don’t know the codes for what we all hate. I have not gotten the memo!
There is a big difference (in some cases) between a cradle Catholic and someone who chooses to be Catholic. I am learning this!
But really, I see this in more than one area of my life. You just can’t be yourself, and if you insist on it, then you’re going to be shut out.
I insist on it. With a chart like mine, there is little choice.
There is a lot coming up on this topic. I have written posts ahead.
Uranus/Pluto — I’m thinking power to the people. Things may get a little rough with established authority, with Aries and Capricorn placements squaring.
I look at it a little differently. I think people gravitate towards friendships for comfort and support. I’m sure that looks different for everyone.
So I guess I think it’s more about that persons internal state than some sort of punishment towards the other.
Or – maybe she liked him, but he didn’t like her.
I’ll never know.
She said she only met him once. She asked him to come out into the parking lot after mass and bless her new car…which he did.
It’s really bizarre.
As I have written before, the clash seems to be cultural. He’s Spanish for whatever that means. He’s a strong personality, but he’s an excellent priest.
Problem for me is I like strong personalities.
Can you see this? There is a way people are to be – he is outside that way, but I like people who are outside that way. I cannot not and would not UN-like people I like – if someone does not want to be my friend because of this – I’m going to have to live with it, and so are they, for that matter.
Because no one is going to tell who I can like, what I can feel, what I should think or any other thing of that nature.
Period!
I mean I lost friends because I married my husband.
I just have to live with this, yes?
Of course! I am not having someone choose my husband for me, egads!
What sign would best represent “opinions”?
Far too often I see people more attached to their worldview than to their relationships. It has to happen sometimes I’m sure. But these days it just seems sooooo pervasive, dude.
Sio, that’s an excellent observation – thanks. 🙂
Thanks Elsa and good luck
“more attached to their worldview than to their relationships”
That makes a lot of sense, I think I get what you mean. This is a good way to put it. It doesn’t really lead to thoughtfulness (I am guilty of it) , things get adversial real quick too.
This stumped me. I could not form an opinion on opinions. 😀 I looked it up cuz I was stuck and the thing that rang true for me is that opinions are based on feelings and emotions, not reason or fact. So according to that, I would say there is an emotional investment of some kind in the opinion. However, hopefully, a second opinion from a medical practitioner or the opinions of supreme court justices would hopefully not be based on emotions. Yikes!!!!
This is how/why my last close friendship, with the Pisces, ended.
You know the sayings:
Variety Is The Spice Of Life
To Each His Own
Live & Let Live
There’s No Accounting For Taste
One Man’s Meat Is Another Man’s Poison
Seems that kind of freedom in life is hard to come by these days 🙁
Angie
I totally agree!I lost so many friends for this very reason, means our relationships were not based on authentic sharing, always conditional instead…”I love you provided that you don’t….A/B/C”..what a relief to find inside myself to key to rebel against such a slavish approach!I’ve been a people pleaser all my (1st part of) life, libra rising and south node, saturn in 7th, I’m superlateblooming now.If anyone comes over claiming friendship with me, putting conditions on it, well…I don’t mean to judge..I just can’t afford it.
I’d rather be alone and I actually am..becoming more selective every day but at the same time opening my heart to accept other people’s uniqueness, as I expect them to accept mine.I’, getting extremely determined on this,after having been conditionally accepted all my life,due to specific issues of my very early childhood.
it takes time to overcome the fear of being isolated,if it’s ingrained in your emotions, but being in relationship under conditions is hell,not compatible with life.
the sooner these agreements are made, the better..let’s not save it for the next incarnation
I can’t imagaine a relationship hinging on whether or not I would join forces with someone against someone else. I mean if someone I enjoy spending time with hangs out with person(s) I don’t enjoy spending time with then when we hang we don’t hang with those people. It’s just the way it works. It’s difficult enough being involved in projects or job assignments with folks at odds with one another without doing that in my personal life too.
It kind of got lost for a few days while I was regurgitating other things including the self respect thing. But the person I was in heavy conversation with was talking about shame and embarassment. It underlined that she often says she is ashamed at the behavior of other people she is/has been affiliated with. You know, it’s like follow the family code and don’t bring shame on the family kind of thing.
I can remember shame from when I was very young and under peer pressure. And I do think there are people who are embarassed to be with me or try to discipline me into being how they want me to be. It relates to not accepting who someone else is. And me, I just as soon have them run away than be unhappy.
I do have differences of opinion with people, but we stay focussed on the commnonality or we will no longer be. I mean really, give up the fun and creativity we share to disagree and fight. I don’t think so.
I had a few thoughts. 1 is, people change, and people drift apart. The trigger point that ends the relationship is not always the reason for the split. It might just be the thing that makes you realize “why am I spending energy and time with this person when we have little in common and their views make me uncomfortable?”. For that matter, when feelings are too intense, it can be healthy to avoid them. I think this can require sacrifice. If I get hives whenever my abuser is brought up, I will likely want to avoid his friends and family, regardless of how nice they may be. If it is really bad, I may want to avoid his whole profession, and people who look like him. If that is what is needed to move on and heal, then I think it is ok. I am going through the opposite. My husband fought with his best friend and to support him I have to decide whether to give up my friendship with this man’s wife. It isn’t fair. But I have my priorities. Maybe in the future the emotions will subside and my interacting with her will not feel like a betrayal to him, but for now, it does.
It’s all true, Laura. Those are excellent points. Thanks. 🙂
And I say I get hives when I think of a certain person, but it can also be an idea. If a certain idea causes cognitive dissonance and conflicts with everything I believe, then in order to be true to myself I may feel like I have to choose to give up on the very foundation of my self image, or my values, or my understanding of the world in order to reconcile it. It can be very tempting to refuse to think about it and run away from anyone or anything that brings up the potential validity of the idea. Of course changing my mind is the best solution, but things take time. And sometimes it feels more important to stay the same when changing can mean losing a community. Isnt this what midlife crisises are made of?
I have a friend and former roommate from college who I have not spoken to in 10 years. She’s become a bit of an Internet celeb, and I could contact her if I wanted to. I do not know how much we would have in common at this point, however. I have become far less dogmatic about my religious and social beliefs in the last decade (and far more analytical about how I evaluate right and wrong). If she has maintained her old beliefs, it might be difficult for me to feel as connected to her as I once did.
I would think the 9th house/Sagg would represent one’s beliefs/world view. And Mercury’s sign/house/aspects would influence that, as well as Jupiter. I’ve got Mercury square Mars and I have strong opinions. I also have Scorpio second house so I have ‘amputated’ when I felt there was no middle ground upon which to negotiate.
I see a lot of insecurity here actually, on the part of your friend. You say she is the top of the heap at the congregation and while I know that’s exactly how all little human groups work (with their insiders and outsiders and leaders and followers), I find it just a little bit sad in the context of the Church. The message of Christ was everything we had taken for granted before was turned upside down: the first shall be last and the last shall be first. If your friend has turned her back on you because you won’t go along with with what seems to me a personal power struggle she has got into with the new priest, then I would say (a) she has missed out on what the Church is all about and (b) she must be pretty unsure of herself and her own ground anyway to make that the reason for cutting you loose.
I don’t know. I still like her.
I don’t think she is anymore flawed then I am and maybe far less!
It is very hard for me to stop liking a person, once I do. It may actually be impossible – Venus Neptune!
I have written other posts coming up. Not necessarily about this situation, but stuff like this as it is on my mind.
Mars in Libra right now, conjunct my natal Mars Mercury – how could it not be?
It’s also been Christmas. I think I will hear from her eventually. If you ever have actual conversations with me, it usually a connection people wish to keep. I have a 7th house Uranus so it’s okay to detach, yanno?
She’s really done nothing wrong or bad to me. It’s a personal problem, as they say! 🙂
Oh! And she does not belong to my congregation. She did, but left it because she did not like the priest. ::laughs:: I know how that sounds.
But her family left this parish over the last priest – took their $ with them. However they are involved with the $ at a higher level and some members of her family are in or around the parish still.
It’s a big family. The first family of this city, I would say. She has 10 kids. This is an older Catholic lady…10 kids was normal, not that long ago.
I wrote about this once – the end of these large family dynasties, like the Kennedy’s (also Catholic).
It’s interesting..which is why I miss her so much. She’s interesting to me and I used to be to her. I think I will be again, eventually. People like me don’t grow on trees, that’s for sure. Sometimes you want to talk to an outsider and that’s what I am.
I am on the outside of everything, all the time. It’s true no matter how much I try to Libra my way in, lol.
Oh well insiders, you know. Being an insider might look like a privileged or comfortable position, but there’s an awful lot to be said for not being an insider. You have much more freedom of movement for on thing. Insiders have to keep the insider thing going in order to remain insiders, and the inside can be a very cramped place indeed at times. 🙂
Well said. I agree.
Elsa all I do is lose friends LOL thank god! and it don’t bother me whatsoever! One girl is outta the way and I am so damn relieved she was always a real pain in the arse! Now there is another girl I want to get rid of her too! The reason being she is negative too! I am not negative anymore. They just brought me down bc their lives are bad. Poverty brings misery. And I don’t want to be miserable with them. I’d rather be busy at school. They waste their fucking time talking shit. To even think about them makes me sick. You know there’s some people you think of and your happy! Well I keep them close to my heart. But then there are those you wish’d you’d never met when you were oh so desperate for company.
I have lost a friend too, very recently over different lifestyle choices. We started out in the same job, but she has really advanced in her career, gotten lots of promotions, taken lots of trips nice cars etc etc and I have ended up on a different, less lucrative but also less stressful path. I don’t have money for travel, nice meals, shopping etc and I have no household help to afford me much time to do these things, anyway. We used to go for coffee and talk about our jobs/husbands/kids and have great conversations but I didn’t clue in until a few weeks after our last outing, it took me that long, to the fact that she wasn’t interested in hanging out anymore. I’m not sure she likes hearing about some of my struggles or maybe she’s uncomfortable talking about her success. I sure miss her. I hope she comes back. I know how you feel. (((Elsa)))
I have done this before. I did it because I did not want my personal life information to get to the person I did not like and because I did not want to show up for social gatherings and have this person in my circle. I did not ask this person to choose me over them, I just gradually backed away because I did not want to interact with the person I did not like any further. I also felt if my friend was interacting with this person, then maybe my friend was changing or I need for it to take its course and see how it all pans out.
Yes, I liked my friend and want the best for her. But maybe the universe was telling me there is other people coming into my life that I need to make room for and meet.
Politics in the church reminds me of history when priests were selling absolution.(I want to research if there was a cardinal grand cross at the time.) I lost a friend – my neighbor who’s elderly but vital. I won’t miss her because she’s a harsh and abrasive New Jersian.
We became friends because I felt sorry for her being in her eighties and she seemed lonely. (Once I felt sorry for and bought a gold fish in a pet store because poor thing had an injured tail.)
Anyway, I was telling her about a dearly beloved friend who is gay. He bonded with a heterosexual woman for life, and helped her raise her son and send him to med school, He had different boyfriends that came and went, My elderly neighbor has a close cousin who’s gay and has been in a committed relationship for umpteen years – they visit frequently, For some reason the neighbor friend interpreted that I was preaching to her and said so. She got downright nasty.
After her harsh behavior, I’m not interested in her anymore – (with moon in Scorpio 7th house) I can exit a relationship easily. Her daughter has come to live with her, and I don’t feel bad about ending that relationship at all.
I don’t know that I would go so far to say that they “don’t like me either”. That’s a rather intense absolute.
I think people are territoria.l In addition, many times we all can view things as black or white; you’re either for me or against me sort of thinking. It happens all the time. We all want back-up, some sort of affirmation that we are correct and justified in thinking person X is an ass. I can’t say it hasn’t bothered me in the past when someone did me wrong and everyone or a close friend got along with said person. But, that’s one of those weird things in life you just gotta buck up about. I certainly wouldn’t release a good friend because of it. Good friends are hard to find. Not everything is about me, ya know what I mean?
I guess it matters what’s more important to you; your dislike for person X , or your love for your friend. If my friend didn’t treat me any differently…well…. The choice is obvious, to me anyway.
I’ve lost two long time friends in the past year over differences of opinion. One was still in the midst of a long running temper tantrum over an object that wasn’t his to start with; and after yet another tirade I ‘laid down the law’. I spent money on him, a disabled vet, every month for more than five years until his disability came through and everything I did for him was ‘dust in the wind’ over one simple, stupid thing. The other had a pissy fit at me, complete with name calling, after I told her it was not a good idea to keep the pit bull she STOLE from a neighbor around her grandkids (more than half the people mauled and killed by pit bulls are children, http://www.fatalpitbullattacks.com). I’m such a horrible person for caring! She has a son that died so I can’t imagine how awful she’d feel if something happened to those grandkids but I guess it’s none of my business. Fortunately I’m used to being the ‘bad guy’.
Nobody knows what it’s like to be the bad man
to be the sad man
behind blue eyes.
it just seems childish. we’re not teenagers any more, are we?
In the end, this gal came back. We’re still friends, even though I’ve moved. 🙂
I do agree with Elsa that everyone is freely entitled to their own opinions and friendships/alliances. That said, is it ever appropriate to re-evaluate one’s own friendship ties with people who choose to remain friendly with a person despite knowing that this person has cruelly caused you (also their friend) tremendous pain?
As in, yes, we do know how badly he hurt you, but that doesn’t matter–we’ve always liked him so we’re going to stay friends with him anyway.
They can do whatever they want, of course, but should you reasonably still think of them as true friends of yours? If someone I knew had deeply hurt a friend of mine, or anyone I cared about, my loyalty would be to my friend who was hurt. Maybe my soul needs to evolve and transcend more, but I just can’t see being Switzerland in that situation. It feels like a betrayal to me. Okay, yes, I have Moon in Scorpio.
Anyone have perspective on this?