It’s common that people in my life who communicate with a distorted version of me. It’s possible this is because it’s all they can see, but it’s just as likely the confusion is on my end and it’s too thick to overcome. It’s as if they send me lines of communication and I send them back squiggly lines because this is all I have.
With Venus square Neptune in my chart, I tend to interact with people in this way. It may be a defense. I have a strong Saturn Neptune signature in my chart as well. If you’ve ever hurt me, I am going to obscure myself so as to not be such an easy target.
I feel it is deceptive to send my hologram out to deal with people, with friends, even. But I don’t know how to stop this. If you don’t like my defined self, I will give you my undefined self. I don’t seem to be able to stop this.
Finding someone who consistently relates to me as a human being with clear definition is almost impossible. I know there are others out there like me.
Can you relate to this? Also, are there people in your life who you feel serve you up an obscured version of themselves?
Yes, I can relate and like LisLionness “I find this tiring and draining …” I’m in the middle of writing a novel of time-travel at at its core is the issue of identity. I wrestle with that issue and write my way through it. Art is a vehicle for me, and writing is hand-work to ground me while I sort things out.
I agree with what you’re written Elsa: “With Venus square Neptune in my chart, I would have a tendency to interact with people in this way, but at the base of this, I think it’s a defense. I have a strong Saturn Neptune signature in my chart as well, and if you’ve ever hurt me, I am going to obscure myself so as to not be such an easy target.” Being able to tether myself so my soul and my personality are at peace with my decision to “distort” is the trick. I would say you are blessed with Ben, who is that tether Elsa.
” I would say you are blessed with Ben, who is that tether Elsa.”
I agree and there is another person now, I think. My husband’s son can see me. He could not at first but I think he caught on.
It’s pretty weird…and unexpected. But then again, our charts are so incredibly alike, I think he has a pretty good idea what it is like to be me.
He has said some astounding things to me. Things people I’ve known for years don’t understand. He asks me questions sometimes – to check his perception and his perception is correct. When you grow up as weirdly as I did, it’s very hard for people to comprehend a person with my design and flaws and gifts even exists.
I remind myself of this man I knew once, he was born a few months after the polio vaccine was made available but he was born on a base and they had not been shipped the vaccine yet so he didn’t get it. He contracted polio, survived, but was left severely deformed. It was not possible for him to walk, with one of his legs shriveled, however he was very determined and he somehow learned to swing his one good arm in such a way to come up with some kind of gait that allowed him to move, in spite of his terrific handicap. Every doctor he saw throughout his life, marveled at his accomplishment. They filmed him walking and tried to figure it out, but you know. It’s was a phenomenon. Like this very narrow way he had of balancing.
I am the same but nobody knows it. Not that this matters, because it doesn’t. But it is a fact.
Well, I just realized this about myself recently (the part about protecting the true self in order to interact with potential dangers). And had decided to stop it. Of course, I haven’t yet. And, of course I don’t have a plan in place yet–as I’ve only uncovered that this happens in my life.
I agree that on my side it is very much a defense mechanism. I really don’t want to hide behind shields and walls..or veils–purposely projected or otherwise.
I cannot think of anyone who currently fully interacts with my true self because I’ve buried that part of me pretty deep. But, I’m practicing to bring bits and pieces out slowly in the direction of one particular person that I choose to trust–my husband.
He does this too. Thankfully I know it from his own admission and it isn’t just a 7th house Venus or Libran projection.
That makes the project a mutual effort all in an effort to gain intimacy.
I want to be able to stop. I’m really hoping that I can. But, I’ll never know until I actively begin trying.
I have Neptune on the MC in Sag squaring a Pisces Moon on my AC. My husband has a first house Neptune.
Lots of people just have a tremendous system of filtering and warping information, anyway. If this were not the case, we would not buy the stuff the advertisers push. Wait. Let me go click on that button over there —>
I think that’s the cultural conditioning, which comes in many flavors, on top of the astrology of it. Since all of the information is not in one place, people are apt to get pieces of the story but not the whole story on a blog like this. But, Elsa, from what I have read, you have had a ridiculous number of challenges from day 1, and the hits just keep on coming. The thing is, you seem to stand back up almost instantaneously (maybe instantaneously) and keep on going in the middle of the Blitz of London.
My true confession is that I see a little mechanism in myself that doesn’t ever let me really check out no matter how bad it gets, and sometimes I think it is a curse to be able to keep on swinging and think it might be better if I could just have a regular breakdown and stop the world. Maybe that’s just basic introversion talking in an extroverted world. But I know for sure I don’t function through things like you.
I say this here because what you do looks like a miracle to me, and I use what I can see of it as a model. It’s like joi de vivre WHILE the bombs are dropping. It’s not like you don’t feel the sadness and grief, but you have this light that just does not go out.
The closest example I can think of is a guy I know named David Landsberg. He runs the Society for Organ Donor Awareness, and this guy is the first person to run a triathlon with no kidneys and no spleen. Most of us can’t even imagine that kind of wiring.
Most people I know are not that deep. I have Pisces on my IC and Sun in the 12th conjunct NN. I honestly can’t keep up with my own hologram…how can I expect anyone else to? And yes I have known obscured versions of people. But I have no idea if it’s on purpose or just because there’s something deeper going on. One person with Pisces on his MC was acting his way through life and could never understand why he kept leasing up his life. I could see it but he couldn’t All I got back from him errs squiggly lines too!
*Messing up his life.
Thank you, mena. It is exactly like that. I don’t know why I am like this, either, any more than that guy knows why he can walk. It’s like being touched on the head by God.
You may have have had all this stuff happen to you, however, you’re going to walk. Or in my case…I am going to be able to use my right hand (the burn) or survive various things, or be able to take a punch…or remember everything necessary but nothing unnecessary or hurtful….etc. on and on…unless you want to remember, in which case you can, down to writing dialogue from 20 years ago, verbatim.
Then I am asked if I am an idiot savant and I have no idea. It’s vaguely disturbing. I like easier questions, like are you a blonde?
“No.”
“remember everything necessary but nothing unnecessary or hurtful….etc. on and on…unless you want to remember, in which case you can, down to writing dialogue from 20 years ago, verbatim.”
I want me some of that!
*resounding applause*
Also want to use my Saturn/Neptune sextile better. I have a nasty case- a couple of women on my back who have been lurking and terrorizing for the past 18 years. It came up again a few weeks ago, and it’s time to figure that weird projection out.
Oh Yes! I am dealing with this intensely for the last two years as I moved back close to my older parents(both highly negative and critical) to help them. I have been gone over 30 years with just a visit every few years. Immediately there was this need for me to shield my real self from them as protection from their disruptive energy. Finally I have developed a comfortable safe zone so I can actually be with them and not get caught in their negativity. Astrology has helped as has Ho’oponopono and soul psychology work. Thanks for the post as it helps me know others also deal with this challenge.
Ben has always referred to me a “desert creature”. Like a Gila monster or a Horny toad. That’s what he sees when he looks at me and that is what I am. So if you can stick out your tongue real far and catch a bug, while you sit on a rock in the sun – well no one should be surprised at that kind of behavior from a Gila monster. 🙂
“Also want to use my Saturn/Neptune sextile better.”
Thanks for saying that / making that tie. Control (Saturn) of the eraser (Neptune).
This is good. Maybe I’ve seen this comment before and knew it, then forgot, and now remember it’s good … I have Neptune trine Saturn/Mars in Leo and it would be good to remember this CONTROL THE ERASER thing more often!!! Geez.
Yes, Neptune/7th, I can be very, very obscure when I feel threatened. My main defense is, becoming diffuse. A threat can be from years ago, but if you haven’t changed/apologized I can remain obscure for years and years because I don’t want to be hurt or betrayed again in the same way. I have an elephant’s memory for this sort of thing.
I’m pretty sure I project a distortion no matter what I try to do.
Same here, Elsa.
People have loved and wanted and hated and crushed someone with my name and face who was not me at all. Most of my life and I know it will not change nor stop.
(I have Neptune opposite Saturn and Venus square Uranus if that helps)
But it’s no big deal. It is life on this planet. Nobody really sees you when you have a challenging, deep personality. You are a threat when people don’t want to be seen and a bore when people want to stay on the surface, which is most of the time.
Entire lives are spent on the surface.
I learned very early to speak everyone’s language, and to never expect people to speak mine.
“I said to my soul, be still and wait without hope,
for hope would be hope for the wrong thing.”
~ T.S. Eliot
ico, thanks for that. This is excellent advice:
“I learned very early to speak everyone’s language, and to never expect people to speak mine.”
I appreciate it. 🙂
What keeps coming back up to me on this is: to be seen clearly, by whose definition of ‘clearly’? We all have neptune placement & and we all have a saturn placement, maybe in aspect, maybe not. But to some degree we all have all planets in our chart. So what may be clear for you, maybe not be clear to me(neptune), we have distortion in our pictures. Living that reality is just part of life, at least to me.
I approach others, sort of like ico said, I know who I am and where I’m coming from. So maybe if I figure out who/where you are, I can find my way back to me (not that I’m lost, just find a connection between us) and create a pathway(s) for us to work together from,
Angie
No. I see people presenting themselves in funny ways but I also see that as part of who they are.
Good answers here!
@music4am: I agree. I mean no one in life will REALLY know every part of us, will they? That’s just the way it is. They’d have to crawl into our heads (no thanks).
@Elsa: Astrologically, could this have anything to do with Chiron? Maybe feeling people can’t heal what we can only heal ourselves? And the sensitivity area will be aspected by Neptune? Just asking because it came to me. Your thoughts?
I don’t know, Dawn. This post has taken many directions at this point. Originally I was saying that there are people I interact with, friends, specifically, with whom I stay in the fog for.
Um…an example would be the women from my woman’s club. They have no need or desire to have awareness of me beyond a foggy, squiggly line version.
You know I’m pretty sure that I’m a ‘squiggly line’ for most people in my life. If that’s who they need for me to be, or how they need me to show up in their life, I guess I see that as up to them. If they really want to know me or clarify who I am, I’m open to that as well. As for myself, I work very hard to know those in my life in relation to myself (as that is where I work from). I can’t make other want to know me and with saturn & pluto on most of my chart, I can understand that most people just aren’t cut out to go that deep,
Angie
@Dawn, I’d agree, can you really, truly know another? You’re gonna know what they show you and how they show up for you. That’s how I see it, as for being in someone else’s head, I’d pass, I’ve got enough work just being in my own, lol!!!!
Angie
I think I’m a squiggly line for myself. Perhaps the neptune capricorn gen understands you.
Neptune in cap conjunct sun and mercury for me.
I can never tell what people see, but at least they see something and communicate with something.
I hope I can understand what you say.
Don’t even think that was understandable.
it’s probably a defense mechanism. most people don’t tend to understand me anyway. or… i’ll project out a piece of me, but that’s all it is… a piece of the whole.
i can drop a lot of the boundaries with my spouse, though. and a couple friends. they may not exactly… understand… me. but they like me anyway 😉
i guess that’s the big thing with me… for most people it’s not worth the ffort to put up with the fear or judgement of what they don’t understand. so i don’t bother. as people get closer i may trust them with more and see how they react (my neptune venus has saturn weighing in on it too.)
I understood you, Hero and would agree that the most important part is this part: “but at least they see something and communicate with something.”
Trying & being there does count,
Angie
Yes, but aren’t costumes fun? Except when they are not. Scary.
And yes, I am guilty of this. Most days I don’t even have a clue of who the hell I am.
I was thinking about this this morning with the sun square moon with sun squaring my ascendent. And man oh man did my friend read me wrong last night and blow up all over me. The kind of thing that means I can’t see her again for awhile. Ouch!!
Anyway, I think my moon and venus are hidden in the natal 8th so people in my life do not see that I have needs and wants, too. Oh boo hoo! But this awareness tells me once again, do not take this personally. Darn cancer moon. I am so insecure sometimes. But maybe it doesn’t show.
I too like the eraser for my personal use. Good one with saturn coming to conjunct natal neptune.
But sometimes I think neptune can make me thin skinned like stuff gets through. Where’s my filter? Where’s my filter? Maybe I have a fear of receiving.
I often get put on pedestals and knocked down in equal measure. Venus/Neptune. I’ve been able to control some of this with behavior that doesn’t validate people’s views, but I have plenty of blind spots, too.
With Neptune on my angles for the first time I am way more wary/aware of this than I’ve ever been before, but feel I have far less ability to see it. At a certain point you just really have to get on with it.
I can totally relate to this and yes, there are people in my life I feel serve up obscured versions of themselves. I just had that conversation with someone a couple of weeks ago! I know there are times when I do it on purpose, but other times when it’s all about the reception/perception on the other end. Total squiggly lines. 🙂
I love what ico said at #16: “Nobody really sees you when you have a challenging, deep personality. You are a threat when people don’t want to be seen and a bore when people want to stay on the surface, which is most of the time.”
Years ago I got a natal birth analysis and one thing (of many) I remember from it was, “you are in this world, but not of it.” That feels very true on many days.
I also have problem with projections = and that people can´t see me. But the average human being can´t see very much. You have to use your “inner eye” to be able to see peoples real nature. If you don´t use the inner eye you just look in the hall of mirrors.
I can absolutely relate to this. I tend to whine (also in inner dialogue) the most about this. In my case I would have to have serious blinders on if I didn’t admit I’m in big part to blame. I seem to instinctively and mechanically retract after bonding or opening up in any form and retreat in my “castle” (Neptune conj. Asc, South Node in Pisces 4th house) for indefinite periods of time until I realize that I’ve shut the world out again.
I’ve also worked hard at integrating the fact that most if not all (and probably me as well in some form – which I try to stay aware of) tend to project their “inner realities” on the outside world and others. By that I mean they only believe the realities (about others) that they’ve decided are most probable and possible based on their own experiences and beliefs.
I can relate to every post here for sure. I have Neptune, Venus, Mars T-Square (Nep. sq. Venus and opp Mars). A defensive Saturn in Cancer squaring Uranus on the Midheaven and a lovely square/opp of the two to Chiron in the 3rd.
I’ve settled on the idea that nobody knows anyone by definition. Any decisive statement of personality is transitory anyway according to how conscious we are of ourselves. Funny thing is, to be conscious is, by my current understanding, is also to be one, boundless.
At best, I even communicate with myself silently (that is without words or need of definition). It isn’t great for dealing with the ‘real world’ but I imagine it strengthens my insides when people slather ‘me’ with a painted image. Not sure if I’m projecting or they are – either way…strengthening the insides, trusting what I know without knowing how I know and keeping shit simple is how I’ve been rolling.
There are some positives too I think depending on how it’s used – I’m a practicing astrologist, tarot reader, writer, visual artist…sort of inside an image that allows a little leeway and fosters connection with other essences of being.
I’ve also worked as an Art Therapist and managed to communicate well with others who were considered unable to communicate effectively. There was a boy with severe autism I worked with and we communicated by taking turns drawing. I’d respond to his squiggly line and him to mine. Full range of emotions were on display from laughing to seriously angry stares. It was impossible to get him ‘talking’ to anyone else.
Thanks for posting Elsa. It was a great read..some of the quotes from all the comments that have hit the nail on the head for me:
“If you’ve ever hurt me, I am going to obscure myself so as to not be such an easy target.” –Elsa
“…this very narrow way ‘he’ had of balancing” –Elsa
“Art is a vehicle for me, and writing is hand-work to ground me while I sort things out.”- Mokihana
“I learned very early to speak everyone’s language, and to never expect people to speak mine.” — Ico
“I often get put on pedestals and knocked down in equal measure” – kr
Thank you for reposting this. I’m going to have to spend some time going over the comments again because I need to understand. I have Saturn conjunct Neptune and Neptune conjunct Venus, all in Libra. I think I fall in line with your statement Elsa that ” there are people I interact with, friends, specifically, with whom I stay in the fog for.” The word “for” stands out.
What a great post, and the comments also!
I have Sun, Neptune and Saturn lined up in a conjunction and I am finally beginning to understand: ‘ If you’ve ever hurt me, I am going to obscure myself so as to not be such an easy target.’ Wow!
Hmmm…I don’t have such an issue. Not with myself and not with other people. I can read/sense other people’s energies and see through any BS.
”I feel it is deceptive to send my hologram out to deal with people, with friends, even.”
We ALL do that! But I think in this Venus/Neptune case you don’t do anything at all. You don’t send anything out, they project their own ideas images on you.
Personally:
With my strong Pluto placement, I hide many things of myself from other people. They simple wouldn’t understand and certainly wouldn’t be ready for it. And it’s really none of their business anyway.
Other people:
Yes, I’ve seen such people, but I’m not friends with anyone doing this. One person has a strong Uranian energy and has let go of social norms (in a bad way), but does this on purpose. Another one has a strong Plutonian energy and this energy tends to push away other people until they know him better.
My problem is rather that I bring the true faces of people to the surface. I don’t really know why…
BINGO! This is so true of me! Maybe there is no clearing the fog away from yourself when you have Neptune on your MC. I have Saturn opposing my Neptune from Taurus and Saturn opposes my Venus as well. I understand where you are coming from on this subject.
People are just going to see what they want to see, has been this way all of my life and more than likely it will be that way till I die.
I feel i’ve been doing nothing but offering people a distortion of myself. An astrologer once told me i’m like the man with the iron mask, even though i’m a woman, because of Saturn conjunct my Cancer ascendant,. A psychologist once said the same:” i can’t read you. You’re smiling, that’s not helping.” All i could think was:” Then you’re not a good psychologist.”
Maybe a distortion is something else than wearing a ‘mask’, but anyway.
My moon is in the 12th house and i once was looking for information on the subject, that brought me here, to this blog, where Elsa gave advice to a client who had her moon in the 12th also. The advice was to do like Obi Wan Kenobi In Star Wars who says:”These aren’t the droids you’re looking for.” to the Storm Troopers who then move on. That same week i was watching tv and came across one of the Star Wars movies. Guess which scene it was? The exact same scene Elsa talked about on her blog.
Really late to the party but I believe my 4-planet Sun Stellium is what won’t let people look at me closely enough to see all of me. And Uranus conjunct Sun/Mercury, I perversely like to keep them guessing anyway. And Pluto conjunct them all in the 12th…do I really know myself??
Welcome, Gabriella. That’s an interesting take.