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Psychopaths, Narcissists, Machiavellians, Toxic Leaders...

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 TBB
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In my experience, they come across as normal people until you try to set a boundary, when all heck lets loose. They will then lull you into a false sense of security (love bomb if you will) until the scenario repeats in another fashion. It is very confusing and easy to live in denial. I believe the best way to approach a person like this is to withhold your energy (no contact if possible), but then I do have Scorpio so would be interested to hear any other takes. This type of personality has had a significant impact on my life.

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Elsa
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@tbb Jeez, I don't think I've ever had this experience. It sounds like hell.

I think I must challenge right away and also, exit! I will not play with the psychopath because they're mean in at least in my experience, keen.  And you get hurt... whoever you are, you will get hurt. 

If you say, "not me", it more like, "not yet". I lived with that delusion once.

A feeling person is just not going to fare well with an unfeeling one.  They DO NOT like people they can spell on. If you're able to see them and they're decent to you, it's only because they're looking for their shot.

Again, I speak from experience. But crush on one of these people? No way!

~~

I know this is not what you asked. Just blathering. Smile

 

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@elsa your comments are spot on. I enjoy the blathering!

And to be clear, these are personality disordered people in my family and at work, not romantic interests. "Love bomb" is not meant as a romantic phrase but think small gifts, nice gestures, agreeing with whatever you say, etc. They are playing you as a pawn for whatever it is they might need. This is a long game and mimics normal human behavior of someone who is making an effort at a positive relationship.

Once you exercise autonomy against their will, they will sit and wait for the slightest slip up from you and pounce, justifying their actions on that "red herring" moment. It is as though your acceptance of their gestures was an uncommunicated consent to their desires that you broke, and that I believe puts them into an internal frenzy. They will never admit what actually set them off.

I think they need to see you essentially writhe to let out their angst. They smirk as you defend yourself, but logic gets you nowhere with these people. You will talk in circles with them, because there is no reasoning. This is the game you are meant to lose and then they can flex their good nature of forgiveness.

My mom wouldn't let up until she provoked tears, and knew exactly which buttons to push to achieve that in this stubborn Taurus moon, and then the next day would, for example, make me breakfast and smile and my dad would make sure I thanked her for taking such good care of me.

I want to emphasize, they really hone in on what soothes you and what makes you tick, and turn up the dial. It is a big power play. To your point, unfeeling people. You have to become stone so they can't continue to feed off of your emotions.

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Elsa
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@tbb once I've identified someone like that, I share no emotion.  I've heard of "grayrock" which may be similar. 

I'm in a position at this point, to leave the room. Once I do, I don't dwell.

I'm really glad I've come to a point in my life where I don't have to deal, except in passing.

Also, thanks for your kind words.

Back to psychopaths,  I look at them in a way to say, not playing, dumbass. They hate me and they do pull crap, but I've suffered this all my life. If you fall prey to the psychopath, and ditch me due to their machinations, I will accept the loss.

My friends have more discernment. I was talking to Scott today.   Had an immediate reaction to a psychopath in my life. My husband had the same revulsion, as did, Ben. All felt what they felt, immediately. 

Point being, there are people who see this shit with very minimal interaction. Scott told me it's visceral reaction.

 

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@elsa I definitely wish I had the ability to just sense it like they do. I am still working on that. Getting past the guilt (Saturn in 12th) has been a big ordeal.  Societal expectations weigh heavily and I am harshly judged, but I am getting much better about not caring so much. It helps to hear you just accept the loss. I am unfortunately still part of mainstream society due to my job so I have to tread carefully, and "what others think of me is none of my business" is not a great strategy when relationships are part of business.

Do you have any insight into how to recognize it quickly? The only thing I can think of is to try to lay down a boundary early on, which does not come naturally to me. 

This has been my Pluto transit 2H Capricorn journey. Surprise surprise I have Neptune in there.

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Elsa
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Posted by: @rusalka

They're proving her right with the backlash.

This view was expressed in the comments. 

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Posted by: @tbb

Do you have any insight into how to recognize it quickly?

Pay attention to your feelings. I think the idea is to see it early and not get entangled in the first place.  People ignore their feelings, don't notice them, override them, etc.

I let offenses go because of this:

https://elsaelsa.com/astrology/the-advantage-goes-to-the-liar/

I am never in favor in fighting a war I can't win. The are lines I won't cross - a lot of lines. I'm going to lose to this type character.

You need someone like my husband to get rid of someone like this. It is extremely hard to do, if they happen to be fixed on you.  

It is possible (for me) to detach and leave and such. I have not shred a tear over a psychopath in well over a decade. They are more like an unfortunate turd in the room. Try to step on it, yes?  Don't hang around as there is nothing in it for you, but loss, pain, heartache.

 

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@elsa thank you for the advice. I think paying close attention is something I am going to have to be deliberate about. I am very mercurial so am more apt to spotting logical fallacies. That is what sends my alarm bells ringing. I think you are right about being careful not to override that anymore (i.e. stop believing the lies, they are not innocent).

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 nona
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Sounds about right, from my experience.

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Posted by: @tbb

Societal expectations weigh heavily and I am harshly judged,

I judge people who judge harshly. I have a low opinion of them. This makes it easier to set aside what they think.

It's true, they can influence others; sometimes, many others, but this is not personal to you. It just shows you the state of our society. The great majority are enthralled with these personalities and that much is out of your hands. 

On a macro level, it's this:

https://elsaelsa.com/astrology/the-collective-is-increasingly-sociopathic/

You get to decide whether you want to head in that direction or not. I am highly motivated to do well / be good, so this is also an easy decision for me.  It's like those pics of everyone running full speed over a cliff. I don't have the capacity to be in the pack. 

One reason is I know too much.  The amount of energy it would take for me to deny my senses, does not exist in this world. So there is a point where, "you go your way and I'll go mine". (Bob Dylan)

If you're not going with, or joining the hate-pack, then let go and their impact shrinks pretty quickly.  The idea of what you focus on, grows is true.

"Elsa is a bitch!"

Elsa is actually pulling weeds today. 

That's a lot of space, in my opinion.  Or disconnect. Or whatever. Not a bitch in sight, as far as the eye can see.  The point is, there's a boundary. 

Here's my boundary: I am not willing to kill someone who does this to me... that's pretty much what it would take.  Consequently, I have to live with it. I try to do this as well as I can.

There used to be a phrase, "consider the source".  My main point here, is people I get along with, consider the source. People who don't get lost, especially in this day and age.

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@elsa I am glad you have observed that our society is being groomed. I was noticing that as well but was afraid that I was projecting these same behaviors I have experienced in my personal life onto others, perhaps as an excuse or something. It's actually kind of a relief, but simultaneously pretty horrifying.

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Elsa
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I have not read her paper, but what she is saying on twitter; the research comes from characters... how psychopaths are played by actors. To understand this, you have to know or accept, some of our famous, renowned, psychopaths are actors.

It reminds me of, "Interview with the Iceman" from years ago.  My husband and I both called BS on that guy, within just a few minutes.

If your research is based on people like this, you're being played.

"HOWEVER, violence is not universal to this response. Those who do not respond physically exhibit a searing look of cold intent which is felt viscerally by the receiver. Covert, non-physical forms of 'punishment', equally as destructive as physical violence, are then later deployed and the searing look 'promises' that. "

She's describing movie happenings here.  Drama unfolding. You are killed now or later, by the bad guy and his death stare.

This is not real. I mean, it can be. But psychopaths that I know, personally, would never tip you in this way. 

God, but things are dumbed down.  We are trained to look for the look the look that later unfolds in the plot.  This allows the actual psychopath quite a bit of cover. All he/she has to do is not perform the tell.  It's ridiculously ludicrous, if you think about it, which people aren't prone to do.

"He didn't death stare me, so I'm okay."

Ha ha ha ha. I hope someone can see how stupid this is.

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