Deprivation Has It’s Upside: Making a Case For Saturn / Capricorn

mechancial horseI have a friend who is associated with a man who finds women everywhere he goes. He finds mother substitutes, specifically and it’s just uncanny. He finds these women (or they find him) and they pretty much form a line waiting to meet this man’s is nothing you can do about something like this outside of observe it and people do. The women don’t compete. Instead they remark to each other, “Look at how many mothers he has…” The man is in his 40’s and in whatever case I told her this story…

When my daughter was a baby, about 3 years old she used to like to ride on those mechanical grocery store ponies. Around here, they cost a penny which I think it pretty cool. One cent and you can actually buy something worth having.

So one day, after paying for my groceries we headed over to the pony per our ritual and found the pony occupied. There was a little boy on the pony… dark haired, grinning and seriously over-fed. You know. This was a well-loved kid if you know what I mean. A lot of people do this with their first baby. They spoil them. And this boy in particular was from a culture where boys are revered, girls not so much.

So anyway, this kid was on the pony and he was happy. His mother was clapping for him enthusiastically to say the least. They made quite a pair these two, and then the pony stopped. Uh oh!

cellThe kid started screaming his head off. The mother looked at me and I kept a blank face because it’s none of my business. She shrugged and put another penny in the pony, making a point to focus on this little boy… her little prince, clapping and cooing and so forth. It was her body language, see? She turned slightly so my daughter and I were obliterated from her reality.

Never mind my daughter and I were waiting… maybe our ice cream is melting in the grocery bags I was holding, we were going to stand there and wait while these two had their… thing.

So the pony galloped and galloped and galloped and mother cooed and cooed and cooed and the boy grinned and beamed and grinned and then the pony stopped.

No crying this time. He had his mother trained.  All this kid had to do is look at her expectantly and next thing you know, she had another penny and she was putting it in the pony and I just couldn’t believe it.

“This is ridiculous,” I said to my daughter. “Something is wrong here. These people are never going to get off this pony. Sorry, babe but let’s get out of here. You’ll have to ride next time.”

The mother acted like she was so involved with her son she couldn’t hear me even though I was standing 3 feet from her. She didn’t so much as look over her shoulder.

Little boys with mothers like that, grow up and become like this man my friend knows. They are so profoundly crippled because the pennies just keep coming. And this is what I mean, every blessing is a curse in exact proportion (and vice versa).

Because as far as I am concerned this man and that little boy on the pony are the same person. The 40 year old boy does nothing but wait for various women to deliver whatever he needs… with bells on. And when one goes away there are three more waiting. Actually, there are ten more waiting. This kind of ease is invariably shown and promised in a natal chart.

I guess this is why they say Saturn / Capricorn / difficulty builds character. Because if every time you put your hand out, someone fills it for you without a second of delay, you wind up something akin to an amoeba. You just don’t form or become an adult.

Do you know any adults whose development is completely arrested like this? And how would you have handled the pony ride situation?

42 thoughts on “Deprivation Has It’s Upside: Making a Case For Saturn / Capricorn”

  1. 1)I know a man with saturn in cap( and Jupiter sadge He is born on ’46) He is exactly like You say. That is for Satrn in cap?
    2)How I handle that situations? Usually I talk directly with the mother with my best librian approach an my best candorous and optimistic good humour. “Hoy long you think that will take?, both of us are dying here”? Usually the woman feels so emabrrased that leaves her blockage, although the childs is the best mannered and leaves first.(Usually) Whatever, sometimes nathing works.

  2. I know of them, but I refuse to know them personally.

    I neither want to take care of someone that completely nor be taken of myself in this manner.
    The whole situation baffles me, honestly – the guy who lets everyone do for him, the women that offer, the other people in his life that put up with this dysfunctional crap*. I cwouldn’t do it.

    I have Saturn in 3rd house Virgo, no Capricorn at all.
    What would someone’s chart who acted like this look like (either the coddler or the coddlee)? I’m not well-versed enough to even attempt to figure this one out. . .

    *(Well, I think it’s dysfunctional, anyway. It’s not like I’m a professional here, I just work for one. :))

  3. I would like to think that I would have asked them to let us have our turn. But probably not. I suspect I would have made some snide pissy comment and walked away. Maybe who I’ve been and who I’m becoming are crossing over in this analysis… answer…

    I do know adults like that man. Both male and female. I don’t deal well with either sex of that behavior pattern. I tend to walk away. I expect others to be as self-sufficient as I am. Huge expectation, huh!

  4. Thank you for this, Elsa. I’ve just spent three weeks grumbling about all this Saturn in my chart–why does everything have to be such a *&@’ng slog?

    The funny thing is that I just read this column right now and I was thinking along these lines this morning so it’s as if I was anticipating reading this today (I don’t have any internet at home).

    I have two female friends who were coddled. They are both in their 30s. And they’re who I was thinking about this morning in the shower bc one of the things that these women have taught me is that their parents crippled them with attention. Their parents did everything for them. Both expect others to step in and take care of them at a moment’s notice. Unfortunately, Woman #1’s parents died and she was left completely helpless! She went from having her father balance her checkbook to having to figure out her deceased father’s extremely complicated financial situation, paying taxes on several homes, tracking several investments, etc. And it was a nightmare, too, bc it involved her brothers as well. She was a patsy for anyone who wanted to con her. It was the financial equivalent of going from riding a tricycle to being told that tomorrow you have to compete in the Tour de France! It was harrowing and overwhelming and, worst, she really wasn’t prepared. She had no one to turn to after a lifetime of having everything done for her. And it made me very thankful that I’ll never inherit any money from anyone. At one point she complained that no one had told her how she was supposed to do something (I can’t remember what it was specifically but it was something pretty simple) and she said: People are supposed to tell me how to do these things! I said: I guess, I never had anyone tell me. She said: Doesn’t that make you angry? And I could honestly answer: No, because I never had that expectation. I was all alone and I had to figure it out myself so it never occurred to me that others were supposed to step in. No one ever did so how could I be angry?

    And the irony is that both women were so sheltered that they’re very fearful. They’re terrified!

    In the case of that mechanical horse, I totally would’ve said something. That kind of selfishness makes me burn, man.

  5. Btw, both women are very sweet but I had to suspend my friendship with Woman #1 when her diva behavior extended to trying to run my love life.

  6. I don’t think I was ever deprived, but I always had a difficult time thinking I was worthy of anything – my sun is square Saturn, which is in my 4th house, and I always felt like I had to work hard for everything. It has made me, as an adult, a person who has few expectations. I don’t see this as a bad thing, though, because I really appreciate the good things that happen to me more because I don’t expect them. The wonderful things that do happen come as a complete surprise to me – and I have many wonderful people in my life that I do not take for granted because of this. And I find that not having a sense of entitlement has made me more flexible and giving than I think I would have been had I been as “spoiled” as most first children are.

  7. Wow. Thanks for this one, Elsa. It helps me reframe a relationship I had with a mom-magnet/man-child. I keep thinking he’s leading a charmed life.

  8. Yes, and Saturn is in poor shape in the man’s chart, it is detrimented and in the 12th house, and Saturn in conjunct the Moon in the 12th house, meaning that the Moon is also afflicted (forgive me if this is not standard astro-lingo, but it is my bias that it hurts the moon to be closely hooked up with Saturn), and the Moon is also in mutual exchange with Mars, which is another harsh aspect on his moon.

    This leads me to think that the people who grow up with all of these people (mothers) waiting to serve them, that their real life mother was actually had weak/poor/troubled/disfunctional/ perhaps even borderline personality disorder herself.

    With this very weak saturn in this man, I have linked it all along, to his seeming inability to take any kind of responsibility for himself or to set any kind of safe limits, to make any kind of healthy boundaries.

    And see, y’all, I have met the actual mother, and she is still, to this day, just like the mother with the rocking horse and the baby. She never did him any favors and there is the issue of too much child in the parent. I have not even looked at her chart, but I bet she has a weak Saturn also.

    Through observing this man I have learned so much about the importance of a strong Saturn in a chart. It is almost as if that without some strength from Saturn, none of the potential good stuff in a chart is going to manifest.

  9. This pony thing is actually a hidden matriarchy, because by not allowing their sons to grow up, moms keep the (emotional) power over them for ever. And by revering them at the same time, there is no escape. It’s a pretty good deal for a few pennies.

  10. Conny-agreed. I’m glad this post resurfaced when it did. One of my siblings is a perpetual child (actually, 2 are. And they both have Cancer South Nodes).
    It’s hard not to feel ignored on some level. No one ever needs to worry about me–I’m just not the type, plus I do well with what I’m given. But it’s hard (albeit fascinating on some level) when everyone around you is struggling and one giant baby is draining everyone of resources that would benefit most from being shared.

  11. oh, dear. i recently got out of a relationship with one of those. no wonder it fizzled so bad. i don’t coddle people and i pretty much ignored his attempts to convince me to. past a point. past the point where there seemed to be energy moving both directions.

    easier to name the thing in hindsight.

  12. Kashmiri–nicely put! I have a Peter Pan sibling (Cancer) who does the same thing…a vortex of attention always forms around him. (The guy I referred to in my post above was born a couple weeks after my brother…similar charts, similar personality.) And now that my brother has kids, the vortex forms around them, with him in the center. Funny how when people really demand attention they get it.

  13. I have saturn in cap/4th house.. and it squares my venus to boot. have always felt like I had to work hard for everything I’ve gotten, but I went through a short period of being coddled too. At the time, I liked the surface comfort of being coddled, but hated the deep sense that it wasn’t quite right, quite honest, or real. Here’s the thing for me: it ain’t easy letting go and receiving.. coddling or otherwise. the sense that I have to work hard is just so ingrained. I hope this makes sense.

    As for men like this… I’ve experimented, playing the role of their mommy…and it’s soul-crushing.

    Whew..Saturn can be a downer!

  14. I remember screaming at my first husband… Sun + 4 planets in Scorpio – his mother was a Scorp too:

    “Look! A man gets one mother and that’s all. You mother is going to love you no matter what! She’s going to thing every thing you do is the best thing in the world but guess what? I’M NOT YOUR MOTHER! I AM NOT HER! So if you want your ass kissed I suggest you get your mother’s ass on the phone and leave my ass alone!”

    Ha ha ha

    “Okay then, Peewee,” he said, grinning. The man was 6’7″… 🙂

  15. I can’t stand these types at all, and I’m pretty sure they don’t like me much either. I work with two men like this, and they act totally entitled, won’t do any work at all. What planet do these folks live on where everything is provided for??

    I also have Saturn in the 4th, in Libra, and had to work for every single thing too. Every time I stuck my hand out as a kid it went unfilled, so I learned to fill it myself. And frankly it has been a blessing because it has made me self-sufficient and unafraid to do my own work and take care of myself. These mothers who protect their kids from reality really do them a disservice – they’re constantly dependent on others.

  16. I have a lot of good saturn in my chart, I am responsible as hell. But the man I am hung up on has saturn in cancer, and jupiter square saturn, as well as a really debilitated 12th house mars. Yes he is lame. Yes he has mommy issues bigtime, his horribly aspected moon is conjunct his ascendant… it goes on.
    My point is he was born this way, just as I was born being the mother in my family, fair or unfair… that is how it is. What about people who need/expect to be taken care of those tendencies will always be there, just the way you better believe I take care of my own shit. So how to look at this? Is it ok to to mommie the chronic babies of the world?

    This obiviously is not how I raise my children, all three take care of their biz. and it shows in their charts.

    Unless I was dead tired I would have just said to the mom of the kid on the horse ” Hi, we are waiting for a turn. ” and prob. smiled a move or lose it lady type smile.

    good topic.

  17. Eyeeew. That is groooooosssss.

    I can’t stand men like that. My nephew, I fear will turn out like that. He’s only four, but he does act like that. And he is spoiled. I say nothing, of course, because as the aunt, really, there’s no way for me to say anything that will come across right. He is lovely and I love his parents (my sibling and his wife). But, the sense of entitlement that’s being bred is, well, gross. It’s not good to get everything you want. I 100% agree.

  18. This is sooo good… many italyan men had mothers like this….
    And they all make very bad adults
    no wonder I’m single living here LOL 🙂

  19. Scorpio Rising and of average weight, but I have an Italian fat face. I’m 31, 5’4 and have no wrinkles and look like I’m 12 years old. I live in a college town so I’m generally assumed to be 18 or 21 (the latter being if I’m in a bar), but I have been guessed at age 15. I have heard somewhere that Venus in Taurus makes you look younger, so that might account for it.

    I have a short Libra Rising friend who used to pass for young until she had a kid and the wrinkles kicked in, or so she says.

  20. Yikes I would’ve been so pissed. But I probably would’ve done the same thing as you, tell my son how ridiculous it is and let them suffocate each other.

    My ex was like this! He always had a girl or two who would put up with his kvetching (including me). It took a while for me to realize this was all there was to him, nothing deeper. Good riddance!

  21. I haven’t read this since the last time it was posted. I’m glad I’m not hung up on that guy anymore. My ex-husband is one of those too. He has so many mothers, and I’m sure he always will.

  22. I knew someone like this. We were talking and I was shocked that he was in his twenties and didn’t know how to do laundry, cook, etc. He said, “In my culture, my mommy takes care of me until I get married and then my wife takes care of me. I don’t need to learn that stuff.” O_O

  23. This story hits close to home. I know lots of Asian men like this. If it were me and my daughter, I would have said something sharp…

    “HELLO! Don’t you see us here waiting?! My daughter would also like to ride.”

    5H Aries Moon. I love kids, and each one deserves a turn.

  24. Sounds like my brother…I feel lucky I was the youngest daughter who grow up to be independent. My brother can’t do much on his own…and all his gfs have been mother substitutes. He’s a cancer and I think that also has something to do with it. He crys, calls people selfish if they don’t cater to his needs…really hope he evolves and grows into a self-reliant man. Either way, we all have our issues to understand and conquer and I think him being in my life has trained me to understand and not give into difficult personalities. 🙂 I’m one lucky sag stellium 🙂

  25. I’ve run into a lot of men like this in very paternalistic cultures, where women are treated as marriage property. A lot of these women like to get their emotional and neediness fix by coddling and spending time with their sons while teaching their daughters to do the same. I find it incestuous when it’s taken too far.

    I blame one of these mothers every time I meet a man that yells at me or actively humiliates me in public to do something more culturally appropriate. Cuz you know, I’m asian aka vagina-for-hire/birthing and should shut up and just do grunt work, bring home more money, AND suck his dick so I can be honored by his family for having his sons. It used to be just the Asian men, but now I meet a lot of this from other men too. No, I’m not married. There’s no husband yet you can complain to for not keeping me in line. (They frown.) LOL

    She could have told her son to get off the horse now and offer it to the little girl with a smile. I rarely see this these days as people are also less polite and feel their money entitles them to anything, any time, with any one they choose.

    As for grown men like this – they can maintain this because women line up to do it, willingly. Why would they do this? Anyone know or feels this way? I myself do not know, but I have a step-family members like this that I do not understand. All I know is the women have always bristled at me when I spoke up for myself vs. three brothers.

    😀 #17 – I told an ex off for being demanding, told him to call his mother for anything else he needed for the rest of his life. 2nd house Venus trine Moon in feminine signs, that one. I mentioned this happening when we went to dinner in NYC – there were women at neighboring tables just staring, watching us eat, and waiting to pounce. To feed him, I guess. I think it’s the lingering smell of money or baby fat cheeks or something.

    What would I have done?
    “Excuse me, would you like to use this opportunity to teach your son to share and be kind to others? It’s my daughter’s turn now.”

  26. So what suggests molly-koddling in the chart of a mother or even father?


    Jupiter aspect to Moon?

    Debilitated Saturn?

    Too many trines?

  27. Very true of Asian men

    And ashamed to admit, this article has highlighted how I can be guilty of this too being daddy’s girl. However, I’d say living on my own and looking after myself goes to somewhat addressing independence, time to do more of it now

  28. The man-child sounds like my ex. He was raised as a Jewish Prince by a mother who smothered him with attention. He couldn’t even pick up his dirty clothes or run a washing machine. Ugh!

    Now I’m with an ex-paratrooper who is completely self-sufficient and who doesn’t need to be prodded to give me a hand at home. He that weird combo of a macho guy who can stand on his own 2 feet and yet doesn’t mind cooking or sewing on a button. Bliss!

  29. I know a lot of people, both men and women, who are in arrested development – all looking for someone to take care of them (at least among the people I know, men in general house tasks, women financially). The women, though, tend to claim that they deserve such coddling because their parents deprived them in some way.

  30. The mothers you described probably aren’t very grown up themselves. Especially the other mom at the pony who seemed just as self absorbed as her son.

    After that first time the pony stopped with the mother looking at the next-in-line, I might have gracefully asked for 1 turn at the pony. Then it’s all hers. Let her say “no” if she wants.

    But with a crowd of women mothering a single man, it’s less workable. I’d just walk away from that one. The alternative is to set myself against the world.

  31. TBH, I probably would have handled it exactly how you did Elsa. I mean, what can you do at that point? Sure, you could start an altercation with the woman to try to get her to move off the pony but in the end you are just as likely to make her dig her heels in than actually leave.

    With regards to me knowing someone like this man? Yes, I know a woman like this and funnily enough she has pointed this out to her mother before – that her mother handicapped her by always taking care of all her difficulties in life and never making her do it herself. She too has a long line of people in her life that are willing to step up and take care of her.

    We were very close at one point in our lives but no longer. I have absolutely nothing in common with her any longer. Our priorities are so different….our very outlook on life differs so drastically that I can’t even bring myself to try.

  32. The mother is raising a little sociopath, someone who doesn’t care about anyone. Courtesy and respect are not meaningless gestures. They demonstrate an empathy for others.

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