Horrid Death

drawn-and-quarteredMy husband was telling that if anyone hurt his dog, they could expect to die a horrid death. I was pretty sure he meant this and it got me thinking.  What kind of person can inflict a “horrid death” on another person?

My husband has this capacity. I do not. While I’m sure that I could kill someone in self defense, and I might be able to kill someone in some kind of blind rage, I don’t think I could intentionally inflict a “horrid death” on another person. I just don’t think there are any circumstances that could drive me to this. Let me define “horrid death”.

Having your head cut off with a butcher knife is a horrid death.  Being drawn and quartered is a horrid death. You get the idea.

Since my husband is capable of this, and I’m a curious cat, I quizzed him about it. First, I asked him if he felt he was born with the capacity, or if it was something that he developed at some point in life.  “Was this ability trained into you?” I asked.

He said he does not think he was born with the capacity. It’s something that developed. He said it was not due to training, but because of his life experience.

I asked him a whole bunch of questions.  But in the end he made a statement which really did illuminate this for me.

“If some BTK-like killer gets, Vid (my son) and keeps him for days, tortures him. He puts him through all this torment and kills him…and then we’re just going to put him to sleep? Uh-uh. I’m going to get that bastard and have him screaming for weeks on end…”

He feels this is effective as a deterrent, but he also feels it’s justice.

I think that’s hard to argue, but told him that even if what he said was correct, it was something outside my realm.

He said I was lucky this was the case.  He’s in a position to know.

Is it possible to deserve a horrid death?  Could you be involved in meting out justice of this type?


41 thoughts on “Horrid Death”

  1. I suppose anything can happen when someone is driven by anger. Most would say they couldn’t do such a thing but when someone close is ripped away from you, who really knows what a person is capable of? I have Mars in Leo and Venus in Scorpio. I wonder if I’d be forgiving or ruthless. It would be one or the other, not anything inbetween. The floodgates would probably open and there’d be relentless hell to pay.

  2. Scorpioandproud

    I think you know whether or not you are capable of that kind of rage. I am not sure you know this when you are a child but you understand it more as time passes. I have such a passionate love for the people/animals that I do love that I think I would be capable of inflicting harm on anyone who hurt them. I understand this about myself. I think some of the people in my immediate circle share this same passion. I only know this because of what I have witnessed myself, or felt myself.

    Just getting over the death of my dog was almost too much to bear. No one intentionally did anything to him but he suffered from a vet mistake and while I wasn’t in a place to do anything but care for him for the following weeks, when I lost him everyone worried that there would be hell to pay. I have no idea how I got through it. I still cry hard when I think about it and its been 14 months. I can’t imagine if it were one of the people in my small circle.

    I have Mars in Gemini but my Mars is square Pluto. I have understood the power of this energy for a very long time. I am little. I am older now. Still, I wouldn’t want to be the person that hurt one of my loved ones. My youngest son has Mars in Scorpio and I have witnessed that energy explosion. It can be horrid. Both kind of go into a blind fury…. its sort of an unstoppable force. Not that either of us walk around like killers, we are not. We are mostly gentle, generous, giving and kind. But the passion we have for those we love mixed with that energy is very lethal. And, we are both old enough to understand this and contain it. We both run. Running or lots of aerobic exercise keep us balanced.

    I have always said that should someone do something to one of my children the safest place for them would be with law enforcement. Locked in a jail cell would be protection for them, and the only safe place for them to be. They would be lucky to be there.

    I have prayed all my life to be forgiving. It’s something I have to work on and I am no good at it. Being unforgiving is harder on the person living without the ability, than it is for the person you can’t forgive. If you are unable to forgive you are just living with a rat that slowly eats away at you from the inside out. I have worked on it all my life. I have gone to church to pray about it. Tried to distract with exercise. Tried to meditate it away. I am certain its all this Scorpio energy I live with and I have yet to find a way to get over some things. I am very aware of it. Amputation is the only solution. And, even amputation doesn’t get me far enough away. It’s a cross to bear …….

    I remember reading a story about a father who’s little daughter was raped. This was before they had metal detectors in court houses. It was their day in court. The father was calm, walked into the court house, got close enough to the rapist and shot him dead. I heard people talk about that story for a long time. Most people thought he was justified in what he did. I understood it. Not in the way of mass opinion, I understood it all the way through my soul. I could feel his rage and knew why he reacted as he did. And, I believe this is something you are born with.

      1. Thanks. Soda. There is a stellium in Scorpio right now. You have to expect such things!

        I least I have Libra and I’m polite about it! 🙂 And we can have discourse about it!

  3. I think it’s possible to deserve what you attracted, I just don’t think I want to be THE person to deliver it (the horrid death, that is) to anyone. Too much Libra.

  4. Please. I have actually seen this happen. It is not a hypothetical “what-if” for me. “May trigger”, as I believe the expression goes. I respect your desire to raise the issue, Elsa, and I have no argument with that, nor am I easily upset by words on a computer screen. However, as someone who has seen and not imagined these situations, in such cases there is no final “closure”: “justice”: or personal satisfaction:
    victims perpetuate victims. The cycle doesn’t end. Unless you choose to transcend it.

  5. I think about death a lot and I often wonder these things. Based strictly on principle, I don’t agree with the death penalty and I believe in world peace, yadda yadda (Aqua stellium and Libra moon). However, my gut tells me that if someone hurt those that I love then I would probably find it hard not to make an exception. I remember lighting up a kid that picked on my sister on the playground back in grade school. I have Mars in Scorpio in the 3rd house, my south node is also in Scorpio.

  6. Dear people (and of course Elsa), please remember it doesn’t end with your act of retributive justice. You may be absolutely right that you, your family or friends were unjustly injured and I understand your desire to punish the offender. But here’s the thing. The offender themselves or the people around them won’t necessarily see it in that light. They won’t think “Well, I got my desserts: I have learned my lesson.” The offender or their folk will forget all about what they did. They will start from your retaliation and as far as they are concerned, you are the aggressor, not them. Believe me. I have seen this over 35 years. There is another way, but we have to let go of our own hurt. Tall order, I know.

    1. Medbh, I don’t have the desire for this kind of justice, myself, under any circumstance.

      I wish I had more time to go into this…I don’t.

      But there is a lot less thievery when a person loses their hand for stealing and if we did something other than coddle child molesters, this would probably deter some offenders and spare some children.

      I am not trying to make a case for this…only saying that one could be made.

  7. Boy, Saturn in Scorpio sextile Pluto in Cap sure has many of us in its thrall, judging by how often these gut-wrenching topics are arising.
    Intellectually, I agree with Medbh, but as to whether I, myself, am capable of such violence – ‘justifiable’ as revenge – I do not know. I have often thought of how easily we judge one another, and find the ‘other’ more wanting than ourselves.
    Stranded passengers cannibalize the dead; depressed, hopeless mothers kill their own children; disempowered young men rape and pillage the helpless: truly, there but for the grace of god, perhaps, go I.
    My own anger is a stranger to me, and the few times in my almost 60 years I have felt it arise – and quite viscerally – I have always been surprised to feel it. Perhaps my awareness has permitted me to avoid becoming its unthinking instrument.
    I support many animal groups on FB and am still saddened and puzzled when people’s reaction to harm is a desire to harm the ‘perpetrators’ of cruelty. Medbh is correct in this, I believe, violence only begets more violence. Unless one believes we have no souls nor spirits, I think our consciousness is the gift that may allow us – if we so choose – to forego revenge and thereby truly see ourselves in one another. A tall order, but one worth aspiring to, I feel.

    1. “I support many animal groups on FB and am still saddened and puzzled when people’s reaction to harm is a desire to harm the ‘perpetrators’ of cruelty. Medbh is correct in this, I believe, violence only begets more violence. Unless one believes we have no souls nor spirits, I think our consciousness is the gift that may allow us – if we so choose – to forego revenge and thereby truly see ourselves in one another. A tall order, but one worth aspiring to, I feel.”

      I agree with this. I think violence ultimately does beget more violence. But I wouldn’t feel bad if someone who committed heinous acts against humanity (as well as animals), died a horrid death. But I personally wouldn’t be able to do it myself I don’t think. I can’t even kill a fly.

  8. I don’t believe one can deserve a horrid death, no. And I am not capable of administering one. Given the choice, I’d kill myself before I had to do it. I am not God; I don’t decide these things.

    12th House Neptune

  9. Thank you, Luna: your words are truly beautiful. I have seen a lot of violence in my life, because of the society in which I grew to maturity and I recognise the capacity for violence in myself. It is something all humans share. No doubt we would not have survived as a species otherwise. However, like Luna, (I hope I am not putting words in your mouth, Luna, please correct me, if I do), I believe that our survival – appropriate for this season of Scorpio!- depends on our willingness to understand ourselves as humans. We are not just a series of subjects-objects: that is, “You did this to me, I did this to you, That was good, That was bad”, but part of an unfolding of our shared species consciousness. We are a conscious species. Our dear, beloved animals are not. Deep harm is done to them, but the darlings do not know it as such: all they know is the immediacy of pain or deprivation. We humans plan, explain, find reasons for our acts.

    What have I say to say is based on pure experience: there is no end to “personal justice”. It will not make you feel better: it will not stop similar acts occurring again: and you will not emerge from it in any way empowered, happy or satisfied.

  10. One certainly can deserve a horrid death!

    “Victims perpetuate victims. The cycle doesn’t end. Unless you choose to transcend it.”

    Perhaps. Perhaps. I am a victim and I choose NOT to transcend it.
    Sorry Universe.

    1. For the record, I also don’t believe I have the right to decide who transcends and who does not.
      I am sorry for your pain, Marina.

      I am incapable of deciding what other people deserve. That is me. I am heavily Uranian and respect your own decisions in how you approach this.

  11. Dear Elsa, thank you so much for replying to me personally. I am honoured. I would like to add that I am not referring to public justice, in the sense of a properly constituted legal system which deals appropriately with offenders. In the situations you mention would mean keeping them off the streets for a very, very long time indeed. I believe this is essential for a fully functioning society. I am saying, in the absence of such a system or even where one exists, absolutely nothing can be gained from allowing one’s own pain at abuse to be translated into abuse of the perpetrator. Where t ha happened, and I have been a witness, it is soon almost impossible to tell who is the victim and who is the perpetrator: all of us bear the scars.

    1. Of course you haven’t, Medbh. And I am aware that your WORDS are quite true.
      Now I am forced to say I am sorry for being so blunt!

  12. the only rage ive ever felt that could bring me to inflict a “horrid death” upon someone, would be if someone attempted to go behind my back and “steal” the person i love from me… theres only one person ive ever loved in such a way. there have been occasions where other women have flirted with him right in front of me, and it took everything i had not to bash their face in right then and there. the thought of him being with someone else almost paralyzes me with rage. ive always been a bit possessive with boyfriends, but this is different. maybe because i waited so long and fought for the opportunity for us to be together, but i think it comes down to just being so in love with him. i don’t have children yet, but i would imagine that if i did, i’d feel the same way about protecting them and i would probably have the capacity to inflict a horrid death on anyone who touched them, as well. thats really what it comes down to… a protective instinct. protecting the relationship with the person i love. im a cancer sun, and sag rising. my mars and saturn are conj, and they trine my venus while squaring my sun.

  13. No, I don’t believe there is a justification for causing the horrid death of another; a death where they suffer. I don’t believe I could be involved in such a thing generally speaking. I know what I’m capable of, but I don’t believe that’s justice and I don’t want to live in a world that functions that way.

    Medbh, I’m sorry for what you’ve lived through.

  14. Thank you, Marina. I really do hope you’re OK as I don’t like to think of you being upset. And thank you, Arachne. It’s not just me: all of us in my little land know where “personal justice” gets you. Many of then with much more cause than my own.

  15. Scorpioandproud

    After all that has been said part of the question is are we capable of inflicting…….whether its right in the universe or not….I still share the same opinion as the soldier.

    I am going to be honest ….yes, if you hurt my child I am more than capable. Run….run as fast as you can. I am not sure about cutting heads off with knives and such, or if it is even the correct justice in another’s eyes. My passionate rage would get the best of me and I have zero doubt I would react exactly as the soldier would.

  16. I feel embarrassed to post on her again as I seem to have monopolised this thread. I’ve probably driven other people away who had valid points to make. I apologise, Elsa. Your post is very close to my heart. At the risk of repeating myself and closing down discussion, I need to say: this is not imagination. I know of, and close to, what actually happens when you take “righteous justice” into your own hands. In the country I grew up in, for a long time, the public system of justice favoured a particular ethnic group. Those outside that group had little recourse to justice. Initially when the excluded group took the law into their own hands, they were supported. Quickly, it became apparent that their “law” was no “law” at all. Innocents met their deaths because “justice” in my country was what anyone with sufficient power said it was: and that meant bodies turning up by the roadside, for no reason. Please think about this. I have seen victims turning into the most brutal oppressors. They became what they suffered. There is another way. And it works. But it takes an awful lot of energy, self-sacrifice, and a recognition that no one is going to pat you on the back for it.

  17. I have Mars in Leo in the 8th, aspecting Saturn.
    Yes, I can met out a horrid death.

    I always thought if someone targeted me (to kill/hurt), I would torture the bastard before I killed him or make a bloody mess.

    As much as I would like to torture and kill some BTK-killer who attacks someone else, I’m sure I would have to catch them in the act otherwise, I would be charged with murder.

    I have always been like this. I was a kid, I thought it would be cool to be a serial killer that only killed other serial killers/rapists. Later on, Dexter was on TV and that was my favorite show for a few years.

  18. I can understand your husbands thinking, and I believe I have it in me to do this if pushed far enough. Mars conjunct Saturn, squaring my Sun, Moon, and Venus.

  19. I can’t say that I feel anyone ever deserves a horrid death. At least, I feel it is in no way up to me to make that decision.

    This brings to mind an NPR show I heard recently. They were interviewing the author of a new book entitled ‘Evil Men’. He chose to track down and interview former Japanese war criminals who’d committed the most horrible war crimes; they’re now seemingly peaceful, personable old men, very willing to recollect about their shameful pasts. It sounded like a very interesting book.

    The author expressed his feeling that these men would have absolutely lived as normal people, had they not been caught in the tides of war. He also apparently explores the strangeness–taboo– of befriending these men in the process of learning their stories. Uber Saturn in Scorpio material.

  20. Sorry guys I’m not gonna get all wishy washy and new age here but I will say there is a hell and if people deserve punishment for shit they know they’ve done then its not on me.
    God says “I will have vengeance” God’s throne rests on righteousness and justice. So if someone wronged you go to Him, forgive the enemy, ask Him to restore what was lost (obviously you can’t bring someone back from the dead but His ways are mysterious) and let God deal with it. I live by let go and let God. My dad is always a dick to my mom when he wants to be but we keep him in check. And I always forgive him by night’s end although my sister doesn’t understand that I do. She thinks I hate his guts. I am not afraid of my dad’s alcoholic problem nor temper and I am no coward. But if he ever strikes mom I’m calling the Popo’s .. I know that sounds crazy but better him behind bars then the worst. However, I pray for his heart to heal so he doesn’t do some stupid shit like this. I also pray for mom to find a way out. I am okay I have no fear nor dread. I just fear God > 😀 Fear no man but have a healthy fear of God. After all y’all don’t know who put you on earth, or where your going. So love Him and be prepared to meet your maker whether your good or bad who knows where we’ll end up. But I know I love Him and I hope Jesus has prepared a Mansion for me like he says in his Word.

  21. @ S & P, yes good point, I realised after I posted I hadn’t answered very precisely but computer kept crashing and I’d run out of time.
    I know the feeling of being pushed to a place of pain by another’s brutality to the point where I felt like hurting them in revenge couldn’t be anything but justified. It was truly sobering to feel that that depth of hatred and to feel that driven by it. I walked away. Am I capable of acting on that feeling? I don’t honestly know that I never would but I doubt it. On some deep level I just can’t believe in it, and the hook of that feeling…it’s a relationship with the wounder. I don’t want it. I just can’t.
    But this subject interests me very much because – as Firecat says – a lot of people who do terrible things are very very ‘ordinary’ for want of a better word. I wonder if anyone can truly say what they’re capable of until they’ve lived through something…beyond the protections of civilisation. What does civilisation come down to? What sustains it?

  22. Yes, I could torture someone if they hurt the ones I love the most, I have no doubt. I think of all my aspects it is the pluto in libra (justice)conjunct saturn in scorpio oppostite Aries Venus… But also my Mars in Aries. And of course my 8th house sun/moon/mercury loves justice that is sweet revenge. I wouldnt hurt any of my loved ones, I seriously wont stop, I’ll personally hunt you down and have your head.

    1. I dislike this about myself BTW, it scares me. And also, so I dont look like a total violent nutcase, I should say I wouldn’t hurt anyone unless they truely deserved it, like the BTK example…. It would take something horrid to make me act that violent. It’s weird because 9 times out of 10 I can let go of hurts and even teach my son to let go, but when something crosses a line, all my good sense goes out the window.

  23. Scorpioandproud

    MM my husband has Mars in Aries….he would be right behind me….and he is the most gentle Pisces with a hearty Cap moon you could ever meet. Man would give you the shirt off his back…. he would give everything we have away if he thought someone else needed it.

    Once a man grabbed my arm….once, the man never did it again. The sweet Pisces switched immediately….I have never seen him like that before of since. I hope to never see that look in his eyes again.

  24. A Deep, Dark, Topic!…
    I’ve had reason to examine my thoughts/feelings on this subject/issue and the reason/s I had, to seriously examine them, were frightening, to put it mildly. It was amazing; and I don’t use that word flippantly, to me, the lst time I became aware of the depth of my rage and the unbridled expression of it; as I was always a more restrained and introverted type of reasonable person. I finally came to the conclusion, that it’s best for me to not be in relationships, that might be a cause that sort of reaction. I think it’s a very good exercise, for a person to think about the various scenerios that could set them off and what they’d do, in such & such a case; with alternatives being thought about, in advance; much as a person who’s capable of premeditated violence, of the kind that could inflict a “horrid death” on his subject; the repercussions of such, should be carefully weighted and thought out in advance; so that said actions wouldn’t be taken, without full self-permission, to do the deed. However, the propensity for violence, may or may not be measured, accurately, by the one with such attributes, of one degree, or another. I believe that there’s a certain disposition that some people have been born with, in order to enlist to serve in the military…”born soldiers”. I can’t imagine the agony of those who were drafted into service during war, who didn’t have that type of personality; but, can imagine that they’d be maimed spiritually, by the trauma of it; when the natural soldier would be able to justify the necessary action/s and not be nearly so effected, by the same scenerio/s. It is difficult to “pre-meditate” a certain type of re-action, to something that comes out of left field, prior to its happening; it is, however, a worthwhile exercise, to engage in. Many wish they would’ve thought about what they’d do, before it actually came time to take action, with thought of what the repercussions would be. I *think*, given my own disposition, that if I could get past the initial knee-jerk revenge mode, it might be that I’d be less liable to do anything rash, later on, tho I’d probably consider it and wish I could. I’ve really had to work on, resentment issues. If the deed were so dastardly that I couldn’t live with the thought of it, such as the scenerio your husband outlined, or the courtroom drama one poster posted, there’d be a possibility, of my taking matters into my own hands. I pray that never happens, of course….as I’m certain your husband also, would choose, to not ever be put in that position, either.
    My planetary aspects & chart, are posted…I have Mars, Pluto & Jupiter in Leo, the 5th house; Sun & Uranus & Saturn in Gemini. Neptune in Libra’s 7th hse of relationships….Moon in Aquarius.
    It’s the transits that come from left-field, that really throw a wrench in things! 😉
    ~That said~
    It’s important to know, in advance, what you’re willing to die for;
    because there may come a time, when it becomes necessary, to do so….
    with full awareness, of the consequences.

  25. I’m in line with your husband’s thinking, to a point. No question I could kill someone who molested my children or grandchildren. I wouldn’t call the police first. I’d find a way to kill them without being caught. Even if it took a while to carry out. But I couldn’t torture them. Just kill them. I have my moon and Neptune in Scorpio.

    I like this quote from Star Trek, “Wrath of Kahn.” “Khan: [quoting from Melville’s Moby Dick] To the last, I will grapple with thee… from Hell’s heart, I stab at thee! For hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee!”

  26. I’m a dog owner myself a sick of hearing this from others. If you take proper care of your dog, which includes DAILY exercise and socialization, and keep your dog properly put up (in YOUR yard with a CLOSED gate) and on a leash there is very little opportunity or reason for anyone to cause harm to your dog.

    1. KaD, you’ve jumped to an erroneous conclusion here. What you’re upset about here has nothing to do with the context in which this conversation took place.

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