Mean Or True Black Moon Lilith – Which Is Correct?

fire goddessIn my last post, Should I Care About Black Moon Lilith?, cosmicbeast brought up that there are, in fact, two Black Moon Liliths. Because Black Moon Lilith is a mathematical point, there is disagreement about how best to calculate that point. There are two main schools of thought, and thus, two Black Moon Liliths. Confused yet?

I’ll break it down. In the last post, I mentioned that Black Moon Lilith is the secondary focal point in the Moon’s elliptical orbit. Knowing just this, you’d expect the second focal point to move smoothly around the zodiac in the way that the Moon does. But, in fact, the Moon wobbles all over the place. Because of this, the second focal point does too.

Some astrologers feel that, due to the wild oscillations of the second focal point, it makes more sense to take an average of those positions. This is known as the Mean (as in average, not temperament) Lilith, and it the most widely-used version of Black Moon Lilith. Other astrologers prefer to preserve the chaos and track the focal point as it is, in all its wobbly glory. This is known as True Lilith.

I tend to strongly favor True Lilith over Mean Lilith. To me, it’s a no-brainer. I mean, think of what Lilith actually is. While, as I mentioned before, there is no consensus about her role in myth, she can be most readily described as the wild, dark feminine. She is That Which Cannot be Tamed. And with that spirit, I cannot imagine her as Mean Lilith. Just think of the wild darkness within all of us, slowly, methodically plodding along, never retrograde, always predictable, thoroughly domesticated. It makes no sense! It is far more in line with her nature to vary her speed, sometimes crawling, sometimes sprinting, jumping around the zodiac and retrograding on a whim. She can’t be pinned down, and she laughs at those of us who try.

I also see this in practice. I have two wonderful women who are very close to me. Each is a generally soft, sweet, ultra-feminine woman…except about one thing. They were both sexually abused in their childhood, and when this topic comes up, they both transform into fierce, furious, fire-spitting wildcats (and rightfully so). And in each of their charts, True Lilith makes an incredibly close aspect – one conjunct the Midheaven and opposite Pluto and Mercury, and the other sextile Pluto and square Chiron and the North Node. And in both, Mean Lilith makes very few meaningful aspects – a wide square to Neptune and a loose quincunx to Uranus. I think it’s clear that Lilith energy is powerful and prominent in their lives. And Mean Lilith doesn’t come close to explaining it.

If you want to check out the difference in your own chart, the easiest way is to head to and go to the Additional Objects field at the bottom of the page. First, click on Lilith. That is Mean Lilith. Then, on the right side of the page, under Manual Entry, put in h13. That is True Lilith. Then, be sure to let us know what you find!

Have you compared Mean Lilith and True Lilith? What makes the most sense to you? 

23 thoughts on “Mean Or True Black Moon Lilith – Which Is Correct?”

  1. Both can be useful. And their relationship to each other by house and sign can also reveal a lot.

    One Sag rising chart I have worked has a Mean BML conjunct Jupiter in Cancer in the 7 th while the True Black Moon is conjunct Chiron and the North Node in Leo in the 8 th.

    Talk about a split between the spiritual and the emotional….

    1. I agree.

      When she’s strong in a chart, looking at both can be very insightful.

      To me it’s much like when a coin is spinning and for a brief moment in high velocity both sides cease to exist – that feels like the full poetic expression of BML/Lilith. It’s the same coin, that can be either heads or tails, yet when spinning on a single point axis the coin appears to be a complete fusion of a head and a tail …. what is that fusion? That’s the mystery!

      I am also fascinated by the fact that BML moves 40 degrees and 40 minutes a year – sounds a lot like Venus’ dark and light journey when she retrogrades for 40 days and 40 nights.

      1. “Strong in a chart”
        In hard aspect to the Sun , the Moon, the Moon Nodes or the chart Angles ? Is there anything else you would add – or subtract ?

        Check out Mick Jagger and Florence Welch on U tube performing “Gimme Shelter.”
        His Leo Sun conjuncts the Black Moon – no exact time for her – but the 12:00 PM chart suggests that a Moon/ Black Moon conjunction is possible. The emotive force of Black Moon fusion was there in that performance……

        40 degrees and a nine year cycle that also could be related to the nine months of gestation in the womb… our Black Moons magnetize us into a specific womb.

        1. Yes, hard aspects to personal planets and/or angles. Though if the softer aspects are at exact degree, that’s something that will make me take notice too.

          Wow! The reference to gestation and the womb, is so revealing. I loved it – immediately I thought about the mythology of Lilith that has her stealing babies, sometimes savagely from the wombs of their mothers.

          1. The Galactic center is a Black Hole. It is a contractive event not unlike like the Black Moon and the womb. It draws in, rebirths, and renews light in a continuous dance with universal Solar events.

            In this solar system – with the light of our Sun at its center – our perspectives have been skewed towards light and the sky – and away from the secrets and mysteries of Black Holes and Black Moons. But that is changing.

  2. My 24* Mean Lilith is conjunct my 2H Aries SN while my 15* True Lilith forms a fire trine with my 11H Sag Saturn and 7H Leo Uranus/asteroid “Jayne” conjunction. I like this trine. When I face a tough situation, I do need an emotional kick-start to tackle it, so says this Libra Sun/Virgo Venus…

  3. There is a difference! Mean Lilith in my chart is at 19 degrees in Pisces (4th house) and True Lilith is at 15 degrees Aries (in the Fifth house). Now I have to go look these up.

  4. All in Sagittarius, conjunct ascendant:

    True Lilith – 8 degrees
    Ascendant – 9 degrees
    Mean Lilith – 11 degrees

    Either True or Mean makes the conjunction, so it’s a wash.

    I’ve never known what it means for me; the internet generic descriptions don’t really resonate.

  5. My Lilith stayed in Sag in the both. Now she did move from the 10th house to the 11th house which makes so much sense. True Lilith in Sagittarius in the 11th house is pretty right on the money. I have always felt like an outcast. Alllllwaaaays. The reject of the rejects. Lol Ironically I have always been very popular (sun and Mercury and Uranus in the 10th house) counting other planets and nodes, asteroids etc my 9th and 12th are full too. I thought about posting my chart when Elsa wrote about people who have like 90% of their chart in one area! I have always been independent, to my detriment even. I have always longed for a normal life, a normal family of my own. Even when I have close to achieving that dream the circumstances have always been shrouded in mystery. Lol I shit you not. Now this may sound exciting but with hard aspects to moon Venus Saturn and Pluto have made me a very depressed person who even though maybe should be happy at such a life I fucking struggle everyday with depression. I’m also very sensitive to drugs so I do not take medication. Just mental prowess and intuition to get me through. (I used to drink, but that was many moons ago. I’m largely Native American, and you know what they say about no alcohol for inguns after the sun goes down. It is crazy! It affects me wildly differently than others. I can take 3-5 shots and I’m almost comatose. Oh and I am such a klutz. I blame my Sag sun and the 3-4 Jupiter aspects I have. I do love to laugh and have fun! And I can be a lot of fun actually. It’s just the Saturn and Pluto aspects

  6. One Lilith is opposite my sun-moon-midpoint and square a North-node-Conjunct Neptun
    The other Lilith which is opposite my moon-Conjunct-Pluto-Uranus and square Juno…
    Could you say which one is mean and which is true? Or is it just double crazy Lilith ?

  7. Thank you for this clarification! I have Mean Lilith conjunct my 20d Cancer Asc, on the 12th house side. I was never sure what to make of that – I just kind of accepted that my appearance may be off-putting in some way. Some people have told me that I look intimidating but of course I don’t see it! I could get twisted over the notion that men may see me as unapproachable, or they may not approach me in the most respectful manner, but I have no reason to worry about any of that.

    True Lilith also lands in my 12th, but at 29d Gemini, conjunct my Mars. The meaning of this is still somewhat elusive for obvious reasons, but it adds a little more dimension to my Gemini/Sadge oppositions, which include:
    Mars at 25d, opposite Uranus,
    Chiron at 19d, opposite Saturn, and
    Mercury at 1d opposite my Moon!

    Gemini Mars in my 12th house has been my abiding Achilles’ heel, so now I can attempt to reinterpret that in terms of the “wild feminine” and see how that goes.

  8. True Lilith gets really interesting for me when looked at in my Progressed Chart. There she is closed conjoined to my Aquarius Sun 10th House…progressed from a Scorpio Sun. This discussion and perspective makes the current chaos I feel understandable. She-who-would-not-be-tamed is right! The current transits of Saturn Pluto et. al in Capricorn are consolidating my old woman–Crone Power — in my natal chart crossing my Asc where Lilith waits seemingly unaspected. Ah, but in the Progressed Chart the wobbly moonness is shouting for me to make a little more trouble!
    Wow, Gemini Full Moon has me stirred up!!!!?

  9. I’ve never followed Lilith before, but I just looked it up in my husband’s and my charts, and holy cow Lilith is prominent in my husband’s chart and aspects mine.

    He has mean Lilith conjunct his IC by 2 degrees in the fourth house side, which conjuncts my Ceres! His Ceres conjuncts my moon.

    His asteroid Lilith conjuncts his Mars and Venus and falls in my 7th house about 4 degrees from my descendent.

    His true Lilith conjuncts my Ascendent.

    His Dark Moon Lilith conjuncts my Mars in Libra.

    What does this mean? I’m shocked they all aspect my chart.

  10. Loved this read! I always wondered whether True Lilith or BML was more prominent, since most astrologers use BML but mine was in 3rd house Gemini and I never really felt that it related. When I looked up my True Lilith, though, I found it in Taurus, still the third house but surprisingly, it was opposite my Pluto and square to my Sun and my Mars – creating a grand cross! To me, the three other planets mentioned had always seemed to be a source of conflict, with their inherent masculine energy (even though I’m not entirely sure about Pluto?).

    While growing up, I had many issues with accepting my own femininity. Despite being born female, I somehow felt that I wasn’t worthy of anything “feminine and beautiful” and went to great lengths to looking masculine – men’s clothes, short hair, binded chest etc. It wasn’t as if I felt male or wanted to be male, it was just feeling unworthy of being feminine. It took me a really long time to overcome all that, understand that feminine energy wasn’t to be feared and avoided but I think we made it, finally! Everything else that Lilith represents, though, seems to be a work in progress, but I’m looking forward to working with her 🙂

    1. Astrologers vary widely on this, but I use standard orbs of 8-10 degrees. Of course, this comes with the understanding that the closer the orb, the stronger the effect.

  11. Thank You for the info. My ASC is in the same position as my TRUE LILITH(which I prefer) which is AQUARIUS, my friends.

  12. Im not sure I relate to my True Lilith as much as I do my Mean Lilith, for that I stay in preference to my Mean Lilith.

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