My husband has come to the conclusion that it’s not possible to speak to women. He says if you say anything to them they get the wrong idea. For example, if a man says anything even remotely nice, the woman will get the idea the man is interested in her.
This may sound outrageous to some. I don’t know that it’s universally true but I have certainly seen it happen to him, without fail and happen to others, frequently. The man says, “That’s a nice dress”. The woman decides this means he wants to do x, y, z to her or with her or whatever. My husband says he’s learned by experience not to talk to women at all because of this. If they hand him something, he’ll say “thank you” and that’s it! He literally goes out of his way to avoid conversing with a woman because he doesn’t want a headache.
What I think is interesting is I don’t know that women feel a similar type restriction. I watch what I say to another woman’s husband but that’s not all men by a shot.
What is your experience with this?
There’s a reason I need to be frequently hit with a clue-by-four: I take everything at face value. Other people aren’t me and aren’t going to use the same code, so I don’t even bother trying to decipher; speak to me plainly and directly to get what you want.
On the flipside, I use the same strategy when talking to people. I am as simple and direct as I can possibly be because I don’t want anyone to have to decipher my code, either. It just causes fewer misunderstandings, I think.
That said, I have noticed more women than men tend to analyze conversations down to the bleeding stumps. “So I said X and he flipped his hand like this and said Y. What does that meeeeaaaan?!?”
Um… Maybe it means Y? *grins*
I gots better things to spend my energy on. 😉
It bothers me that men are generally painted as predators and unfaithful dogs in society. With this notion so insidiously planted it’s no wonder women react the way they do. I have experienced the same thing so I mostly avoid familiarity with unfamiliar women. I usually say “hi” and keep moving.
It’s definitely tricky.
Wow I think exactly the opposite!! True women pulls things to shreds and over analyse but the women I know and myself are more discerning than to take a simple compliment as a “move”
But smile at a guy (and I am SO not a flirt, I do not play games) and Ive often had great difficulty extricating from how he’s interpreted it. And while on this, on a superficial level it seems the more unlikely the guy would be a candidate, the more likely he is to misinterpret!! Eg too old, too young, too unfit, etc
Weird the different perspectives.
I’m always trying to figure out if someone has an ulterior motive. But, it takes more than one comment for me to draw a conclusion. Like, if he said, “Nice dress” to me I would think nothing of it. Unless, the next day he said something similar and then complimented me again later that same day and then round about the 4th time I’d be like..alright..what’s this dude up to?
The thing that drives me crazy is people who speak in hints. Ox does this. And I feel like I’m constantly trying to decode him and it drives me nuts. So now, when says something I repeat back to him how I interpret it. Helps some..
I have to careful what I say to men. Always.
Elsa your husband strikes me as a particularly virile sort with a lot of loose testosterone floating around him and I’m sure women respond to that. It can also be a projection — Oh, he *likes* me — because she picks up the undeniable male vibe from him, and responds. Other men without that really heavy male signature could get away with a compliment like that and not be instantly accused. But your husband…no. He’s just running that male superpolarity and in his case, yeah, he should probably stick to safer topics.
I see this with younger women but not so much older women. I can hug a man and not have it be sexual as I do not come across as sexual in my interactions. The younger women seem to take an affront and turn it into harassment. If at my age, I hear a wolf whistle, or receive a compliment, I take it as a compliment and move on!
I do understand his need to be careful.
Ironically, sometimes the women that seem to be so insulted often are the ones that dress like ladies of the evening. If you’re broadcasting sexy, why would you be insulted by the response? Every action has a reaction!
I think Eva’s response is right on. That’s my impression of the soldier also. I can’t be too friendly with most men, as they take it as more than it should be, or else their wives do, if they’re married. I have venus in Virgo after all…
I think it depends. There are men at work I feel comfortable talking to, but we discuss work-related stuff and keep it jovial.
And I can understand why some fear saying more than hi-and-goodbye to the opposite sex, period–but if everyone operated this way…no one would date or get married anymore.
Ironically, pulling the super taciturnity might backfire, because I’m sure all those women are typecasting in their head, so whenever he does make a comment beyond “thank you” it’s an event.
How would they skip over the wedding band?
It’s tricky because oftentimes its true! Why would a man comment on a woman’s dress, unless he was checking out her body. Sometimes its not true of course, when a man makes a normal comment, but its best if they stay off of commenting about some personal aspect about her.
I don’t feel that way in general, but I have had the boyfriend of more than one woman I know, put the moves on me. it happened again this month, and now he’s blaming me for his break-up. I didn’t take it as anything but a nice message, until I realized that he was *so* upset over the fact that it had been a week and I still hadn’t responded. I didn’t invite it, and wasn’t expecting it.
My dad is a friendly guy, and I observe him just chit-chatting with women. He used to run a store, and was good to the women who worked for him, and he sees these people the same way. He made sure to have the store closed by 4pm on christmas eve, when store policy said 6pm, for example. he knew how hard they worked.
My husband feels he can get in trouble holding the door for a woman. He does so but he avoids eye contact. He avoid contact with women of any and all kinds, all the time because it’s just too much trouble. This is his conclusion after a lifetime of suffering, I guess you could say. He prefers not to be in trouble with women!
eva, may be right about this in his case. Besides what she mentioned, he’s just got that shadow thing going with his Scorpio Moon. People just think he’s up to something all the time… which he is not.
This happens to me all the time with men. Right now I know a colleague that does metal work, I would LOVE to ask to go and watch him in his workshop but know that my enthusiasm will be taken the wrong way.
@Norah
How do you mean Venus in Virgo? In what respect, curious
I have this placement too
I have the opposite; can’t tell if a man’s flirting unless he spells it out directly; it’s a huge blindspot for me. So I don’t assume that stuff is anything more than what it is. To a pathological degree. 😀 Also I really appreciate all that courtly behaviour, I love having doors opened etc so I try to behave in a way that generates and encourages that social cherishing of each other… That energy exchange of flirting is lovely too and doesn’t have to be more than just appreciation of the opposite gender/that person. I’m with the French, bit of flirting makes the world a friendlier, nicer place but the deal has to be not to make too much of it. I’m not the kind of woman that has to watch what I say to men; whatever that vibe is, I don’t have it.
I think this is so sad! It would be almost like living in a Muslim country, having to be so careful about the opposite sex. It’s back to the pre-C20th era when women in eg Spain and Italy were kept behind the
And if I may say so, it’s such an American thing. In Europe a man can pay a woman a compliment and she takes it for what it is, a compliment. People can enjoy a bit of flirtation, eg over dinner with friends, at a club, or at a party, without everyone having a hissy fit. It’s considered normal for men to have women friends in most strata of society, inc married men
Removing all element of sexual differences and acknowledgement of sexual attractiveness from social intercourse, to the extent that a happily married man doesn’t even feel he can talk to a woman, seems to me a very retrograde step. I find it very depressing – but I don’t have to live in such a society… just as well since I’d find it difficult
BP, I want to point out that my husband’s ideas here are not tied to the fact he is married. He came to this conclusion independent of that.
Also, I have met men who I imagine feel similar to the way he does. That is, I can sense they don’t want to engage.
I am not sure of this of course. I may be sensitive to the fact a man may be uncomfortable talking to me because my husband has shared his feelings with me, but I have run into men who I think have a similar view as my husband. They’ve just been burned too many times.
Game-y men are going to want the game of course, which may be another factor. You tend to engage and enjoy game-y men, BP so this may play as much as the “American” angle.
Ha… I was just having this same conversation with the guy who lives downstairs. I am always worried he will mistake my friendliness for flirtation. I think one’s astrology has a lot to do with it. Elsa you said your husband is Scorpio Moon. Scorpio just sends out those pheromones don’t you think? Alpha male stuff. I bet plenty of other men would love to be so noticed!
I have Scorpio rising and men often think I am coming onto them… when it is only my Sag Moon being friendly. My Venus in Gemini can be a subtle flirt but I hate being come onto….and with a Cancer Sun am actually a bit shy. (complicated)
If I fancy some one…or they me… I prefer if it develops in its own way naturally…no need for pushy behaviour. I do agree that its tricky…and though I do feel for men… and agree that they get misinterpreted… there are plenty of predators out there that are the cause of that resp0onse in women. Best to know your own energy and act accordingly.
This is so interesting, because there was a thread on the boards the other day about the opposite phenomenon (maybe Venus-Pluto, I’m not sure).
Women, incl. me, were posting that they didn’t pick up on men’s cues that they were interested. Or they assumed an innocent motive (for ex. I always think men are sincere about wanting to network for business), when in fact the men were interested in something else entirely.
Like “J” said upthread: “I have the opposite; can’t tell if a man’s flirting unless he spells it out directly; it’s a huge blindspot for me.”
Some women are oblivious, others read way too much into it, and run with it!
I can see another perspective: A man holds the door open to be polite and friendly, then he cave man takes it as a sign of flirting. It’s not just the women, but possessive men too! No man wants to get into a dist to cuffs over something that is really nothing. Or maybe they do?
It is a tragic thing to say but I have also had friendships with several women ruined by their possessive husbands/boyfriends, although I typically had a steady girlfriend of my own at the time. Could it be because I try very hard to treat women with courtesy and respect? What is the world coming to when I can’t even open a door or offer my train seat to a lady without fear of being brought up on sexual harassment charges (and not necessarily by the lady herself) ?!?
BP I tend to agree with some of the cultural elemebt you point out having lived and worked on both sides of the Atlantic
sorry her/woman’s caveman her boyfriend for example…
Sex gives everyone an agenda, sadly. I’ll still tell a woman she looks nice, and if she gets confused and concludes I want to bone her, I’ll correct that too.
I remember once upon a time I had this store and this one customer of mine always came in with sorta plain looking jeans. One day she came in with a full dress, and she was stunning in it. I told her as much, and she turned beet red.
I wasn’t thinking “I’m gonna bend her over this counter this second” I was truly more surprised. It was seeing her in a totally different light.
I would say though, on average, your husband is playing it safe.
Yay, I don’t know how I missed that The Soldier is a fellow Scorpio Moon. Maybe it’s the moon thing, cause I have to be careful to be too nice to mens lest they get the wrong idea. Maybe it’s the “mystery” involved with the Scorpio Moon that allows others to fill in the blanks of what they THINK our intentions are.
I empathise with his plight. This happens to me more often than not & then I have to get “untangled” from something that never was.
I don’t know why it always happens… I’ve asked WHAT it is that I do (so I can STOP doing it) but my friends say they don’t know, or even more annoying “There’s just something about you…” Thanks! Great help!
This is another reason I like living like a hermit.
I think being aware of where your energy is going is admirable. I have Saturn in 8th square Uranus/11th and appreciate that someone else’s energy and how he chooses to direct it is unique to him.
Ditto SaDiablo’s response. I’m female.
Which is why talking to/with men drives me nuts. They are “reading” behind my words but there is nothing behind my words. I speak directly, no innuendo etc. Apparently most women aren’t like this but I did not get that memo. I’m very much like your husband now Elsa. I don’t talk to men if I can help it, unless I’m related to them or have known them for years. It’s too much flippin’ work plus it’s damn scary and exhausting sometimes.
I’m a naturally friendly person and that has often been misunderstood by men. It’s been assumed I’m coming on to them when there is no such thing happening from my end. I’ve also been told how much of a flirt I am (Really?). I thought I was being friendly – I generally know when I’m flirting!
Because of all of the problems I’ve had, I reacted a bit like McKenna and others, I just kind of shut down – make no eye contact, don’t say anything at all and keep to myself. It’s just easier than getting all the attention I didn’t want in the first place.
The reason some women think this of men is because there are lots of times it is true! So if there are men out there who are afraid that women are going to take things like opening the door for them the wrong way – blame the gigaloos out there who do things like as a prelude to try to get into a womans pants! Don’t blame use women. Lots of us are jaded because we have been hurt too much and we can’t help but wonder “why did he say that?” or “why did he do that?” – because that is the way we are, we think ahead.
That said, I can’t see why a woman would think a dude was after something if he held the door open for her – he might be trying to impress her but I think for lots of guys they think it is just good manners to treat the ladies like ladies. And not to sound to stereotypey – but older men do this more than younger ones do – the younger generation men want you to open the door for them.
I personally don’t care either way – If the dude wants to open the door for me, nice – it makes me feel like someone at least noticed I am there (too much Neptune!) and even though I don’t NEED him to open the door for me nor EXPECT him to do it – it makes me feel good. Like it reaffirms my lacking faith that there are still some gentlemen out there who treat women well – whether they are “after” me or not. Hey, I am a romantic.
I too tend not to talk to women for the reason stated in the original post. To blame women in general is of course wrong as is wrong to blame those male predators. Predators come in either sex. We are each individual and need to be treated as such without bringing in ones own personal baggage. Personally I am not the manly type – sports is not an obsession, a sweet car is not my dream. A women would have to come on pretty strong before I got the hint that she was interested in me as a male. I am a Virgo with heavy Uranus and Pisces influence. Ideas are my passion but we live in a society that constantly sends out stereotype negative images regarding both sexes and all ages. So yes, I avoid women. I accept getting slapped if I am wrong but I do not like getting slapped because Ive been stereotyped. Does anyone?
Although it’s slightly non-PC, I don’t think he was being outrageous in stating that. On my end, however, as a woman in my 20’s in the west, I’ve found the opposite to be true, too.
I can’t be friendly without it being seen as invitation in some way. I can’t be generous, warm, with guys the way I am with girls. Consequently I’ve had to limit myself with the opposite sex, and to have to consciously ensure that you do not act how you normally [would want to] act, is a most outrageous thing indeed!
I guess, same as what McKenna and Mahchi said.
hahahahaha…oh boy do I relate.
If I am friendly and open, if I say something nice, a lot of men think I’m interested in sex and am fair game regardless if I’m in a relationship or not. This is even if I make it clear I’m definitely not interested and not available. They just plain don’t believe me and take it as a come on. And if I ignore them afterwards, they keep coming at me with all sorts of crap, innuendos, invites, gifts, “we can ___ at my place, my wife is out of town”, whatever it takes to feed the egos. I turn them down and they get really pissed off and try harder. It’s probably the place I live in or they think I’m playing hard to get. So gross when it’s someone I respected. I don’t know about their views on marriage or if the spouse is okay with it, but it makes me very uncomfortable to be propositioned. Occasionally I get asked if I like men…they just don’t believe I don’t want them – “there must be something wrong with her if my mojo isn’t working…”
I’ve tried being cold and aloof but polite, and then I get nasty comments hurled at my face, if not outright bullying. Now I try to be as nice as I can, keep saying no repeatedly and firmly, and absolutely no accepting any favors, unless I have to for work. It used to make me cry a lot when people would come out of the woodwork.
It’s happened a few times with women, too. Some tell me they wish they could date me and get bent out of shape if I’m not super nice all the time.
I think it’s a bad Venus-Pluto aspect in my chart that hits my ascendant and Moon. Also Pisces action. It’s like they think I’m some secret projected sexual fantasy. I don’t know if I’m just not handling the energy well, but some day I hope it goes away completely.
Polite and faithful men are such a relief from these fools, but they are the guys who keep to themselves now.
I’m very direct, so I say what I mean and mean what I say, sometimes to the point of bluntness.
I take what people say at face value. If they compliment my dress, I assume they like my dress. Both males and females. I do not pick up the shell and look underneath. If they want my attention they can be less obtuse.
I have the problem of my motives being misinterpreted…when I’m merely being friendly it gets interpreted as more, even sometimes by my coworkers. Unless I’m at work (customer service) I don’t make much eye contact or initiate conversation. I wish it didn’t have to be that way but…
The frustrating part is when I actually AM flirting, it seems to go unnoticed by the target in question. I guess they are not interested. *sigh*
@Elemis
Hello fellow Virgo Venus. We, with this placement, are naturally NOT flirtatious, unless we have a reasonable reason to be, as in: he’s free, seems intelligent, I approve of his demeanor, so I’d like to get to know him better. My venus is sextile saturn in cancer in the 6th house, conjunct my DSC. I think that adds to my lack of flirtatiousness and my dislike of all things “game-y.” How about you?
If I were a man I would find my one woman then filter all my communications with women through her, “I don’t know, you’ll have to ask my wife.” 🙂
Im a male Taurus native with a super strong Mars conjunct with Venus and Mercury in Aries. Due to various afflictions elsewhere im tragically shy around most women, most people in general in fact, to the point where i tend to self-sabotage any signals of attraction i may be giving away unconsciously. Except when im drunk. Having said that im always very conscious of this almost primal helplessness and fear i feel when communicating with women i find attractive. But even then i sometimes somehow manage to win a silent inner battle and project a false sense of confidence which they tend to respond to favourably. Maybe they do it out of pity or a genuine liking for a tragic like me. So i think with some men like me theres a lot more going on inside than simple considerations of not wanting to lead a woman on if she expresses some interest, even if its not intended as a move on her part. im just in this tug of war with my own demons 95% of the time and anytime i can get a sincere smile or response to something i say is like a little victory that alleviates the pain for a few minutes.
Thanks, Elsa! 🙂
Well, very interesting topic,. I’m a male, with long term partner and child,..
I am Moon Mars rising in Taurus,.. Son of two full blooded moon in scorpio parents,.. 😉 both!
Do you think i can keep some sort of perceived sexual allusion out of any initial glance at a women!?
All i get is comments about my ‘glances’,. I am said to be good looking,. But as a practicing councellor myself with a rather intellectual grasp on reality and genuine interest in human kind,.. (Aquarian, Sun Jupiter Mercury MC),.. I really can’t say those are my underlying intents nor purposes,..
Even if pairing is in an inkling of my first thoughts, reality is obviously another domain and i’m a very on/off body language character,. So could it be more a probing feature others are sketchy regards!? “Lift them up set them down, watch their feelings bounce around”!?
Maybe, and retrospecting my parents gen here, maybe the advertising world has had a 30 extra years now to fill our entire society to the brim regards what any look and gesture should or could imply,..
Socially we are becoming introverted whiners!? Imagine cave ladies having to really protect themselves from such predatory imbiciles,.. Like actually, as oppossed to this very safe socially flirtile environ we do co-habit,..
If a bee likes a flowers skirt, its generally in there gathering pollen a-presto,..
I would assume most folks should grow up and realise they have a whole gamut of behaviours capable to them,.. Nature of fire, the spirit, lusty devouring tongues of fire,..
What’s new nowadays other than a massively geared set of responses,. If he likes me = house car security,.. Modern day “Barbie” has so much to gain from any moves from “Ken”,.. She has basically geared all her sense impressions over to that set of derivatives!?..
People need to get out more, do fulfilling stuff and live their lives wholly,.. Regrets are covertly reflected in many ways,.
Elsa, a great blog, compliments of the season to you and all your regulars!! Dion,..
Ruled by Mars and Pluto and an Aries rising I can understand why men (and even women sometimes) don’t confront me or get super scared when I confront them – well I’m learning to understand lol.
I don’t like confrontation but im not afraid of it. I’m still the type of person who’s not afraid to confront a situation when needed and I hit the core and it stings and I can’t stand anyone who shys away from it.
lol @ Satori
I’ve also found that most men can be scared or shy around women because of some sort of fear surrounding sex and control or the mother. Fix/express/confront the fear and you’ll be ladies man.
Thanks Elsa,. (you don’t have to post this) but,…
Wow, i did not notice prior, but Dre’s Avatar just above my post is the very picture on my book shelf not a meter from my office desk,..
Phenomenal 😉
I can’t speak for women, but dear god, this happens all the goddamned time with strange men and I feel like your husband about it. Saying “hi” should not be taken as a come on, dammit. I’ve had starkttn’s experience plenty of times. I don’t want to be rude and standoffish, but the fact that I spoke to you at all is not “leading you on!”
There are very few women of any age that I can really trust in the same way as I can with all the other men I know, and in whom I can place any faith. I have had so many unpleasant encounters with females that I have come to the conclusion that i don’t really and truly like them all that much and I MUCH prefer the company of other men in a STRICTLY non sexual sense. I find men easier to get on with and to work with so I really don’t have much to say to any woman, really. I would not really mind if men and women lived on different planets to be honest with you.
I completely avoid any and all contact with women other than my wife, including eye contact. I agree with Alexander, I have just had way too many unpleasant encounters with them, even when my actions and thoughts were totally innocent, so consequently it is just a lot easier to give out A COMPLETE ABSENCE OF signs of interest or attention or niceness, whatsoever. I have really trained myself and really honed those skills and consequently life has become 10 times easier.
I have two Mazda miatas. I used to have 3. Once without even getting out of my car, without even looking at the driver, I complimented her on her yellow Miata, sitting at a stoplight. It was reported to my wife that I was “coming on to her.” Don’t you at least have to be standing up, or in the same room or SOMETHING? Make eye contact? Look directly at her instead of the car’s fenders? I was looking at her freaking car, and only her car, for crissakes!
Before I retired as a professional, in the last three years I preferred to not even meet with women alone if I could possibly help it, always insisting on them bringing their husbands or boyfriends to every meeting, and even then, not meeting in my private office but in a conference room.
And I used to have female friends, but not anymore! I have gradually eliminated them one by one out of my life until yesterday two were left. One lives 450 miles away, the other about 60. The one 450 miles away (for crissakes, she is 75 freaking years old and I maintained a friendship with her after her husband died, who was actually the reason that I knew her to begin with)……you know, crazy batshit stuff like being supportive, over a long distance telephone line her in her bereavement? (two in-person visits in the last six years, the rest by telephone) Anyway, she misinterprets something someone told her and calls me up and lets me have it. I haven’t called her in a year and visited her last probably six months ago. Good freaking riddance! Never again!
Another one, a prominent business woman I used to work with in strictly a professional capacity until I retired six months ago (I am 54). She has been calling me apparently wanting to maintain some sort of friendship. Calling about once every two months over the last six months. I never even returned her calls. Right after the one called yesterday, the second one called and left her bimonthly message and I finally decided that it was just too risky……not returning calls could somehow be misinterpreted as a come on. You just never know. So I emailed her a curt note and basically said I appreciated her concern and support (retirement was very traumatic) but it is my belief that it is inappropriate under the Rules of Professional conduct to have any contact whatsoever with the opposite sex after the professional relationship has ended.
Then the stories you read about younger women and how they invariably and automatically view any man in their 50’s (and I am) as automatically “creepy” if you given out even the slightest, most innocuous sign of kindness. Can’t even hold open the door for that group! At a checkout stand? No eye contact, no conversation, no nothing.
Welcome. Sadbuttrue. 🙂
Sorry,
Guys aren’t innocent. They flirt and give the girl hope. Seen it happen. Otherwise they’d act like Elsa’s husband and keep the convo short.
VelmaD,
Unfortunately, the relations between the sexes has become a red-hot toxic legal and cultural stew, and a real minefield for any male that is stupid enough not to understand the intricacies of these laws. I was a lawyer for 19 years, and the way that the law has evolved, you deal with women at your own peril. You have been warned!
Its never ever about how I treat individual women. You have to take into account the overall context of how women supposedly have been one of the “oppressed,” or how they have been mistreated by someone else, and that as a white man, you “owe” reparations for the bad conduct that may or may not have happened 50, 40 or 30 years ago. You know, stuff that happened before you were born.
I “get it” that I am someone that completely lacks the immediate, animal magnetism that women flock to. I am far too shy for my own good, and I readily admit that this alone causes extremely severe problems dealing with women. My shyness causes me to do and say the dumbest, stupidest shit. I have never been a “ladies man” and a smoothy that gets the girls. I was 22 years old before I had a real girlfriend and until I got to be a professional, dealing with women was always extremely problematic, at best. I admit that this rocky road is largely my fault, not being able to control this shyness unless I am in some sort of role where my dealings with them are strictly professional. As a criminal defense attorney, I represented a lot of career criminals that women just flocked to. It was just amazing how well they get along with women!
Sorry, but I have opted out of the whole mess. As I am starting a new business and career, I will do whatever it takes to avoid working with women. Just too dangerous and too much of a headache.
I deal well with women, on the whole, but I find that there are a lot of women who seem to be looking for an excuse to be offended. Therefore, I tend to be very careful about talking to a woman until I know if she is of this sort or not. A lot of women project their fantasies, good and bad, upon men, and then interpret the men’s reactions as if the fantasies were the reality. For men, that is very dangerous. I had the job of orienting immigrants to their new culture in Canada. I had to warn the men, repeatedly, to be extremely careful in any approach to an unknown woman. In fact, my general advice about approaching unknown women was, simply, “Don’t do it. If it is taken in the wrong way, you’ll end up in jail.” It is far easier, on the whole, to simply ignore women if you don’t know them, and often (or especially) even if you do know them.