I’ve seen and endured a lot of suffering in my life. People like me are typically careful not to cause suffering for others for a couple of reasons. We know what it’s like! But also, if you’re a person who has a lot of things happen to you, you wonder about karma. Especially if you have Capricorn!
There are some people who suffer and make others suffer in turn but I don’t think it’s the norm. How many holocaust survivors have you ever heard of, torturing others? People who have, or have had, real problems realize this is not what you want to do with your life.
I recently worked with a gal who lost both her parents by the time she was twelve years old. Somehow I don’t think she’s out there ruining or trying to ruin other people’s lives. Just on the chance things could get even worse.
Who can relate?
It’s not the norm, in my experience.
I also think some of these people who kill people claim abuse that never happened. Among the population of people who have truly had a rough go… well I stand by my post. I think most are loathe to hurt others. It’s just not the way you feel.
You are absolutely and eternally right. Adversity overcome offers the greatest benefits. Compassion comes to mind-
Yeah, people are gullible. A person can kill someone but there is no chance a lie would ever cross their lips.
They probably need the distraction to keep from looking at their own lives.
Nice way to think… Truth is lost without people like you… 🙂
I think people who have experienced a lot of suffering can and will create suffering for others. It’s just a maladaptive choice, in my humble opinion, in the way they want to direct that energy.
Not all ways I am a survivor on childhood sexual assault that happened almost everyday from age 5 to 13…i was beaten with a leather belt so hard I wanted to escape my body I was raped at age 17 and got pregnant and was forced to place baby for adoption, then my dad and my uncle died at 40 and 45 years of age, then I had 3 beautiful kids with thier father who emotionally and sexually assaulted me and I have alone for 10 years raised my kids by myself, I work as a PSW in a nursing home and I’m one of the kindest people you will meet I think it boils down to society, will, hope and faith cause that’s all I had, in society I had great friends and teacher, I had 3 younger siblings that needed me to keep them safe and I had hope it would get better and faith it had to happen
I agree with you. There is more ignorance and insecurity in people who thrive on the “drama” (there is the key word for you) of negating others..not the mark of someone who has endured true trauma
Yes, I do agree with the point that it is not the norm.
I’m totally behind Elsa and Annalisa here. This has also been my experience. The most compassionate are always those who have truly suffered. Those who claim it, and are violent, are usually suffering only from not having their ego massaged they way they want.
Yes, people do act out what has been done to them, but it is usually unconscious, and when brought to consciousness, the behaviour stops and great compassion is the result.
Also ((Annalisa)), I agree with what you have said here, too. My dad was abused as a child and was always extra gentle raising me. My mom was always the disciplinarian because he didn’t like to do it.
The book “Queen Bee Moms” talks about one type called the “Banker” who collects gossip and spreads it around. She would then use that information to become popular with a clique.
I know someone who does this. She asks lots of personal questions because she just wants to store up the info. She also sometimes thinks it’s fun to be purposely mean. Being vice-president of the PTA is the perfect means to research every other parent.
I don’t think she was abused. She is a high energy, high achiever, and she tries to form cliques for herself and her kids.
I won’t participate in any gossip, listening to it or speaking it. Who needs more pain… let’s try to lift each other up.
I hope I’m not being a gossiper by even saying this… kind of ironic. But I just wish this type of behavior would stop. Lots of nice people become targets who don’t deserve it.
I meant to say, SOME people do act out
Yeah, the misery freaks are just the ones we love to shine the light on, for better (Intervention) or worse (I Love Money, Bradalplasty, Jersey Shore, Rock of Herpes, etc). This is the bread and butter of our media, especially with reality tv so rampant now. Its not hard to see why one could easily come away with the idea that all people are essentially miserable deep down after exposure to such constant..displays.
I hate gossip, and I hate that I gossip, and can usually refrain from it. But some people can get me to open up like a book, and although I gossip, I hate myself for it, and feel really paranoid the whole time, like the person being gossiped about can hear it all. The next time I see them, I feel extremely guilty.
I have Cap rising…
I know this is weird but I’m a Gemini who doesn’t gossip and generally doesn’t have time for it.
I will listen if someone I trust is trying to tell me something s/he feels is critical. I do generally have my ears open for the talk about town, but I filter it pretty heavily with a mind to the person talking and the intended audience. Once I get the thread, I drop out. And if I notice someone talking smack about someone else with the intent of causing harm or hurt, you better believe I’ll call them on it.
“Is that the choice you want to make here? Really?”
I think there are varying shades of gossip. The extreme end is no doubt awful. But people talk about people, I think it’s natural as long as it’s not straight up talking shit and saying malicious things about them. Like there’s a difference between saying, “What so and so did really annoyed me today,” and “That girl is a slut and is so dumb and ugly, she is doomed to fail.” You know?
This is eerie ~ or maybe not, considering the ‘bonding through hate’ post ~ but I woke up this morning, thinking about one situation of my own, and how certain people weren’t thinking about me or my personal situation, when they told me to let something go (just as those who are the cause of the trouble, didn’t give a damn about me when they stuck a knife in). They claim to have lived through certain things themselves, but also gossip amongst themselves, mock people (like me – they knew I was in a bad way anyhow, and laughed at me for being so upset over the distress *they* caused me – and they’re supposed to be adults).
I was comforted by a few people confiding in me, about their own experiences with certain people, but in general I will say to people, “Maybe you shouldn’t tell me this.” I asked a couple of people what they were getting at, when it came to throwing certain accusations out, but not being direct about it – I wanted to know, because I couldn’t see what they were getting at, and it bothered me that anything was said at all. I was ready to defend if I didn’t see what they saw.
I dealt with a few things when I was a kid, and what finally had me walking out of school, was when I saw the other kids passing a rumour around the class, about me. I watched as one kid leaned over to the next one, over and over – I’d never fought, because I didn’t want to hurt anyone else. I walked out of that class, and out of school. It tears me up when I think I’ve been the cause of pain for someone – in the past year, I gave someone a taste of their own medicine, and just felt ashamed afterwards. I thought, “Thank you!” as I read Annalisa’s comment about some having trouble with assertiveness, because they don’t want to hurt anyone (especially their kids) – I’ve tried to explain that to people for years. Even if I was polite, I felt bad going against somebody else’s opinion (I’m not saying that goes for everyone), because it can feel like an attack whens someone disagrees with a strong personally-held belief.
Sorry, for the ultra-long comment. 🙂 I’m stepping away from the computer, to get other things done.
I agree that there are a lot of individuals out there who have experienced a great deal of suffering, and due to that they are particularly sensitive about creating or causing suffering to others.
However, I have worked in the legal field for about 20 years— I have never seen a child abuser, particularly when it comes to sexual abuse, who wasn’t abused as a child. Due to the longevity of my career so far, I have seen abuse go through successive generations, either through personal observation (of the case, not the act!) or documented histories, like waves from a pebble thrown in a pond – reverberating over and over. Even when the children are removed from the abuse at a very young age.
Did I ever ask the victim if they suffered? No, not part of my function, but based upon the facts presented, suffering was apparent.
Did I ever ask the abuser if they thought they were inflicting suffering? Again, no. The very fact they could inflict such acts upon a child indicates to me that they are lacking in “concious-ness” – they have no empathy.
So do I believe that those who experienced great suffering can and do inflict suffering upon others? Guess my answer is yes—-
I have a gemini moon & I dislike gossip. And people acting ugly on TV (reality shows etc).
Why would I want to be entertained by watching someone else’s misery and ugly behavior?
“There are some people who suffer and make others suffer in turn, but I don’t think it’s the norm. How many holocaust survivors have you ever heard of, torturing others?”
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I’ve passed on similar messages to others. This is absolutely not the norm.
Your lines should be on a billboard.
I think we all talk about each other. I just think that the intentions behind what we say are different. Some speak highly of others. Others want to bring their subjects down.
I loathe gossip.
I totally agree with everything Elsa and Annalisa said.
I will only add that I think that people who have really suffered often learn great compassion.
I’m with Hades Moon. I worked in legal publishing for a few years and read about abuse–sexual, physical–that travelled down through the generations. A person who has suffered tragedy or pain is just as likely to bring suffering upon others as those who have had relatively pain-free lives. Also, some holocaust survivors were partisan “soldiers” while in hiding. They killed their enemies, blew up bridges and basically brought down suffering upon those who had ruined their lives (not that I blame them!).
“I think people who have experienced a lot of suffering can and will create suffering for others. It’s just a maladaptive choice, in my humble opinion, in the way they want to direct that energy.”
@Caroline- It’s been my experience that there are more of this type than the compassionate types. I may have made my reality and caused my own grief, but that’s been what I’ve experienced in my past – to an excess. My present life is more peaceful. I have amputated the gossips and back-stabbers and am now taking applications for wise, compassionate, some-what-enlightened friends who want to giggle and have some fun. I’m creating a future that I want to move into and a present that I enjoy being in.
Sanju, that sounds right to me.
I think death follows me. I hate it, but I think it’s made me a better person. It would be nice to live with naïveté, I think, I take everything much too seriously now. I lost my grandmother when I was 7, she was still middle aged, my friend killed himself when I was 14, one of my best friends kille herself 6 months later, another friend killed himself 3 years later, another of my best friends drowned a few years ago…lots of this kind of stuff. I’m not frivolous about life or peoples feelings due to this. I take peoples sadness pretty seriously and try to help in situations others would dismiss as non important. It’s Aleta important of someone is bothered enough to bring it up. I have sun Venus and mercury in Leo in the 8th, sun and mercury square Uranus in the 11th in Scorpio. Pluto in the 9th square mars in cancer in the 7th
I think it’s possible (although I have no statistical evidence to back up my hunch) that people who have been abused and /or suffered in childhood tend to polarise. They will either be very accommodating – always seeking, needing and offering love, empathy and compassion – or they will be consumed with an inner rage and bitterness, and act out that negativity towards others.
I think those of us who fall into the first category probably to some violence to ourselves – we give out or give away too much to others and sometimes let ourselves be used or deceived.
Studies say those who were sexually abused in shildhood either commit abuse themselves or they may become very promiscuous. I don’t know the truth of this but it would chime with my impression that those who suffer physical violence sometimes reenact that down the line. But it’s by no means all all abusers may have themselves been abused, but it doesn’t mean all those abused will go on to abuse in their turn.
The kind of psychological abuse I suffered along with a few others here does I think leave a different sort of scar, and that is to do with ‘neediness’ and lack of boundaries (or too many boundaries).
I agree very much with your insightful post BP. I’ve seen this polarisation you mention many times, within my own family, and also in other families and society as a whole. Some who suffer violence and abuse may become needy, others may ‘act out’, displaying a range of negative behaviours. Some may make it their life’s mission to help others who have endured similar experiences, whilst a few will project their rage and sense of helplessness onto loved ones – ‘the abused become the abusers’. This is not only evident within families, but can sometimes been seen within entire nations and cultures. What I find fascinating is how the seeds of violence are sown afresh with every new generation. I’m only just beginning to study astrology, but I see very clear indications of violence repeated in the natal aspects of family members from different generations. In looking at the charts of friends from similarly difficult backgrounds, I see yet again the same patterns. In order to break the cycle, it is necessary to understand how such violence begins and how it is perpetuated – analysis of the astrological patterns inherent within such a legacy can be a great help.
I agree with you. I am a capricorn, have suffered abuse throughout my lifetime in every form. I have and am in treatment for a borderline personality disorder. It is my experience that hurting people hurt people. I wish I wasn’t that way but I find that I am often mean and it’s within my nature to be. What goes around comes around. I know this to be true.
If the person was born with a predisposition to being compassionate, abuse makes them even more so.
If they are not compassionate by nature, the abuse is an excuse to remain that way.
Sanju, that is fantastic.
I think my own worst life experiences have made me a kinder person, either given me more compassion for what others are going through, and/or perspective on what’s really important.
I think Snaju put it very well.
I might add that there may be a difference between those that have ‘survived’ abuse and those that have ‘healed’ from abuse. It might be that the ones that merely ‘survived’ may perpetuate the behavior, but those that have been lucky enough to go through therapy to ‘heal’ have transcended and are able to break the cycle.
I rarely eat in our lounge at school because of the hateful things that the teachers say about each other and the students..I’m thinking most of them were the kids with the easy lives and am amazed at the lack of grace they extend to others.
Sanju wrote @ #36: …. the abuse is an excuse to remain that way. And many agree.
Some people come out of the womb mean, no matter what they’ve been through in life their underlying nature will never change. They are born miserable and die miserable.
Very interesting folk’s. I was a substitute teacher for 6 years heard alot. Maybe more because I was fresh meant they want to hear my take on things…
wow
Anyway for today this really fits whats happening In my case I always friend this constant request to this gal who means to be really snarky and never helpful in years past maybe 40 yrs ago going out for fun, but not in real time… I like to unfriend her a few hours days later.. Most of my post are public anyway
Just reading these made me jumpy!! Ahh as a strong saturn girl ( not Cappy, I’m a Sagittarius ? ) I see hurt very easily and always want to nurture. Although the sag can make me seem insincere or goofy.
It’s all about awareness. If you’re more of an aware person (through therapy, education, self-help, whatever), you don’t abuse others or want to. Even if you’re leaning that way, you would get help to change things. You know what is going on inside yourself, your own inner-workings, and are more apt to own it, not project your own misery onto others. That’s my take on it.
You really have a point here. I am Cap ASC, with Saturn in 12th house, square my Pisces Moon in 3rd. Also Sun-Pluto and Mercury in the house of Saturn. Currently I will have my Saturn return in the 12th house. So much things happened to me, emotionally, but that is not excuse to harm other people`s feelings. I don`t see a point in that, or in revengeful behavior. I can`t help it , I understand people too much, even when they act hurtful.
….in regards to the holocust- it is very very hard to adopt the idea of Karma- as I am sure is an unbearable concept to behold regarding all of the genocides throughout history.
a genicide is an amount of real crualty that is unbelivably hard to write or discard as karma. people with free will chose to murder other people throughout history.
and I know from expirience that Elsa is right- a surviver could never extend that kind of horror to a living soal ever.
The people who hate themselves the most would not want that to happen to anyone else. In my world.
I think people that are actively suffering will torment others. But those who have healed and integrated pain will not.
Those close that I have seen suffere have an innate way to take their fear and turn into anger they don’t ever noticed that their anger hurts people I believe them to be so afraid the knob broke off there’s no controlling it here fear turns into anger immediately if one experiences fear as a child there is no way to defend themselves with adults, as an adult fear transforms them to a helpless child but fear now anger frightening as to them it’s life or death cat drowning
I take great care to avoid adding to anybodys suffering – I’d almost say, that I prefer to suffer myself, rather than causing suffering. I am a capricorn with saturn in 1. house (in scorpio).
I agree with Annalisa and Elsa and Sanju. Yes, there are those who inflict suffering upon others to reduce their own pain, but for the most part, people who have suffered deeply and survived are careful not to inflict upon others what has been done to them.
As far as believing in karma. Hell yes I do. I’m capricorn rising square saturn and sun, pluto and saturn in the tenth house. karma is a law of nature. There’s order to the universe. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Nature will always right itself by balancing out the scales. It’s a pretty freeing concept. Freeing isn’t a word one usually associates with saturn but there it is. Just knowing that’s theres a rhythm to it all and knowing that your actions have power for good or ill!
Well, the people who have suffered, but have not integrated the sufferings into their life story tend to unconciously repeat the pattern on other people (for example, some people who have been abused become the abusers, but others don’t). But the ones who are concious of that and have processed the events, would try to prevent the sufferings of other people, because they are aware of the impact on someone elses soul.
I listen to a lot of stories where greatest generation and Pluto in Leo men tended to stuff their suffering or not know how to process it and drink or take it out on their family. Because things like therapy or talking it out were stigmatized and they didn’t have many people around them with solutions or who could support them. Like the Sam stone song. Hehe
Then again I have moon in aspect to mercury and have always prized exorcising or confessing your problems to someone else as a way to get rid of and not stuff…or eat them. Except it burdens other people and sometimes you spit up more negativity without a solution in sight.
Okay, a lot of comments here about gossip. I just want to say that, while gossip can indeed be used for ill, I think gossip can also have an upside. I see gossip within communities as a way that people keep tabs on each other, in order to look out for them. And the same within families. It’s how you find out if someone is down on their luck and needs help. I’ve seen people within a community quietly go to the aid of someone else, because they ‘heard something on the grapevine’.
I gossip sometimes. It’s not the worst thing in the world. There is worse. I gossip to close friends or I used to tell my mom and they take it no where else.
There are much worse things to do. To victimize women or children is an example.
My experience is that people who have really suffered can take it out on others sometimes, but they quickly sicken of that, and learn the karmic lesson that was intended.
Some people who have suffered (in their family, socially, or historically like in in wars) can harm others but not intentionally.
Maybe they don’t have the necessary distance between their emotions and their intellect (but this might be the case for everyone, and for all sorts of situations).
I don’t know if it has to do with education (models in their upbringing) or “natural” skills or inclination for empathy.
It’s difficult to say what’s ingrained and what’s acquired.
Some mean people are simply psychopaths & nothing logic seems to apply.
I don’t know how karma relates to psychopatholgy, but it must be a real bummer.
Such people definitely do exist and they are called malignant narcissists and psychopaths/sociopaths. The vast majority of this group has suffered some form of abuse or neglect of their own as children.
I agree that the vast majority of *healthy*, well-adjusted people who have suffered a lot in life do not go on to hurt others. But for the person who grows up to be disturbed and personality disordered, hurting others because the driving force of their life.
Sadly, the people most often targeted by these folks are the kind, compassionate people who have already suffered greatly, thus making them susceptible to more abuse by people like this.
I have to tell you that they are targeting vulnerable people with an attraction to charismatic black holes of a person. I think it’s annoying that there are so many sites sanctifying the enabler of the sociopath as a victim and a wonderful empath. People sometimes meet the people they expect to meet.
I do agree though that it is not their fault and that they should be supported through everything. And that often they are good people. But it isn’t always the kindness that attracts the sociopath. It’s boundarilessness and vulnerability
In my opinion. I just suspect the worst of myself so I get mad at websites that characterize a personality disorder as a villain out to get you all the time. This is frequently true but.. Not always.
Sorry. I’m just projecting. I tend to be self protective and have met many Pisces people with specific reasons for helping the downtrodden and creepy. And not turning down anyone who needs help. I just have that don’t go in there reaction. But I’m also overly cautious.
It is trendy to believe that women especially should be confident, self protective and go with their gut instinct about men especially. And I am no exception. There are two men I froze out at work because they’re creepy even if my coworker says I’m not nice.
But I believe that I will try to help children whenever I can
….please don’t spred “gossip politics”: The muslim/christian arabs that live inside Israel- are Israeli citizens with full equal rights.
palestinians have received their land to rule by the international peace agreemnts. their Hamas leaders choose to bomb/ terror attack Israel ever since they got their own goverment.
I belive in free speach and that everyone has their right for their own independant political view- but please leave ( my family) Holocost victims & survivers out – since you Rebecca can not begin to understand what happened in the holocost according to your remark here. History is not gossip- and unfortunatley world war 1 & 2 had real casulties of cruelty. you have no idea what it’s like to live with that. and what horrors they tracended to continue life after that horror. with all due respect.
As someone who is part aboriginal american, I’m a little insulted by your whining. You have your homeland. You have your language.
I’m one of those that in modern terms is “sensitive” and prone to being blindsided by narcissists. I think in this way I have caused my family to suffer greatly. IOW that makes me the cause of suffering.
To the original point of this thread, I don’t go around trying to hurt people, I’m generous, empathetic and see good in people others wouldn’t give the time of day. I cut my kids too much slack and tried to over compensate for not being good enough or doing well enough. But…
I have had a rough time turning people away, and some bad situations have resulted. My family thinks I’m an idiot; I can see why, and agree that it’s necessary to learn to identify the threats and defend oneself. I was so blind to this! BIG pattern. I saw my kids suffering from this, and my motivations were so slippery and shadowy!
Certainly, it causes suffering to others if I decide to take in a rabid dog, or an infected person, etc. Not to mention the risk to self.
May I ask, what’s the astrology for this? If you had a friend who had your back and protected you from this, would it help?
do you ever actively go against your intuition and say someone is not that bad?
I haven’t read through all of the gift of fear, but it comes to mind.
Good question! Yes, friends help, but often I have resusted, or not “gotten it” until late. Still helps! Fear was a constant companion, and I think such a familiar reaction I confused it with interest.
Astrology? 12th house Libra moon sq. Saturn, Scorpio asc. conjunct Neptune, Scorpio Venus sq. Uranus in Leo. Many Pluto transits in my life.
That says a lot to me. I wouldn’t know how to express the positive side of this other than to get a Scorpio or Aries type at your side. Other than to serve people and participate in creative projects in a work capacity and felt responsibility to your kids at home to set a boundary and keep the rabid dogs outside.
Sorry for the unsolicited advice.
I’m cardinal and watery. I’m also undergoing a Saturn Uranus transit and Pluto transit. Whoo hoo.
Very clear, and in part working. My work projects are creative and serve people.
I love the boundary direction. Even “be nice or be gone” above my door would serve as a reminder to ME to keep my boundaries. Do I have Aries/Scorpio allies? Need to think on that notion. Thanks.
The people I’ve seen be bad to people and throw their wait around don’t get their comeuppance. I believe the Saturn battered or the weak do…
The people I’ve seen be bad have a mob boss personality. Usually managers. Maybe it’s jupiter that makes them untouchable.
So many people rose to power on the talent of others, the weeknd, Lenny Bruce, etc. I’m sure every politician owes their success to something dirty along with actual achievement. Perhaps it is part of the success of the hungry and lucky.
I haven’t seen the meek get their comeuppance. Maybe not thinking you can have everything precludes one from getting it