What modern women want: a beta male: Men are surrendering in the sex war, taking on the supporting role.
Kate Mulvey writes:
“Last week I went to dinner with an eligible doctor. As we were finishing the main course, I struck up conversation with the owner (Marco) in Italian – I speak five languages. My date nearly choked on his linguini and spent the rest of the date mute. I had committed the worst dating faux pas: I had outshone my suitor.
Yet it would seem I am not the only woman who is wondering whether it is time to hang up her brain and turn into a Stepford Date. In America research shows successful young women are hiding their accomplishments for fear that their academic achievements and financial kudos will scare off potential suitors…”
She goes on and on and all I could think was here is a woman who is never going to get a man because she’s a cock-blocker and she doesn’t know it. She has a preconceived notion of how men are and it is not goo. Whatever foot you give her, she’s going to cram it into the shoe.
Perhaps she has a 12th house Mars or something similar. She has no idea she is fighting (and blocking) the thing she wants. I wasn’t too keen on her stereotype of Spanish women, either. ::rolls eyes::
What do you think of this gal? She’s a missile but is she guided? Or misguided?
Misguided AND full of herself. Not a good combination.
Wow she’s something else isn’t she? Hah… I cringed reading it
“The widespread view is that accomplished women are at a disadvantage in the marriage market because men start out by saying they want a strong, powerful woman and then end up running off with the secretary. I should know. A few years ago my Swiss banker found my conversation too arty and cast his attentions on a lovely Spanish girl who worked in his office.”
First off, what is not strong or powerful about a secretary? A secretary is not exactly at the top of the corporate ladder, but damn, does that necessarily mean she is not a strong, powerful woman? There are other ways of being strong….like being a strong wife, a strong mother, a strong woman in general.
And as a SPANISH girl, I take offense to her last sentence. We can hold a VERY “artsy” conversation, for her information, and look good while we’re doing it :P!
She’s never going to be happy because she comes into the situation thinking she’s better than the man! I mean … it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that the same thing would happen (or, anyway, should) were a man to act the same way towards a woman.
Also, there’s an interesting article in O Magazine about astrology. Y’all should check it out.
Ive been in relationships where men went soft because I was slowly achieving more than them. It bothers them! the weak ones anyways. I totally agree with some of her points.
One of my cousins married a less educated/less ambitious woman that he didn’t love because it would mean a more stable marriage. and left a woman who was more ambitious than he was, even though he loved her!!! so yeah, I totally believe men can do that. but that doesn’t mean you should try to be with one of those. The longest most stable marriages are the ones where the woman wears the pants!!! When the man is the alpha dog, he will end up abusing/cheating/leaving the wife anyways.
I don’t think its so much being “better,”
I view it as her going on a different life path (she is v.passionate about her career, is successful), and maybe even gathered more experiences than him. a woman should never apologize for her knowledge/power/position, simply respected for it. The best men are the ones who view being with a successful woman as an asset, not an instant ego-deflater.
don’t get me wrong tho. I’m not asking for the return of matriarchy. relationships are about 50-50
but the happy marriages are a common denominator of men who give a respectful slight preference for their womans opinion.
I think she’s problably utterly boring and that’s why intelligent men look else where.
she sounds like a show off, that’s very uninteresting. deep down she knows it too. that’s why she’s bothered by all this.
I beleive most men prefer inteligent women. most the ones I know at least. inteligent people have a rich inner world, unlike this gal.
and that’s essencial in bonding with another person. you don’t have a soul, you don’t have intimacy.
she’s cock blocking herself 😀
“Men are surrendering in the sex war”
Bah. Every war has a few deserters. 😉
It’s not about the men at all. She is dating who she thinks she should date, not who she really wants to date. Then when she gets rid of them, she says it’s because she was too intelligent for them. Couldn’t possibly be her fault. Viv is right, she is cock blocking herself.
“A powerful woman makes the best partner for a powerful man. It is only weak women and weak men who do not understand this.”
-Orson Scott Card, Sarah
I’ll be damned if I’m going to dumb myself down for the sake of some creampuff who can’t handle the challenge. I couldn’t respect myself if I did. And people with no self-respect are stunningly un-attractive anyway, so I’d lose there too.
Wow, Viv, that was my FIRST reaction as well: ‘ever thought you were boring?’
Or, maybe her delivery is off-putting! I am the first person to admit that what I think I’m putting out in the world and what the world interprets of me are two very different things.
Thanks for the link, Piya!
Don’t get me wrong, I would never play dumb to get a guy—but I LIKE the idea of my man being much more intelligent than me, and protecting me, and wanting to provide for me…
If that makes me pathetic and weak I don’t particularly care.
people fall in love with other people.
in all sorts of complicate interactions.
i don’t like the generalizations here. trying to homogenize people’s modes of operating.
my grandpa was a gentle, sweet, quiet man (virgo) who married an opinionated schoolteacher (gemini.) but no one should ever call him a beta. he just had a different kind of strength.
similarly with my father.
*shrug*
Guess he’s never heard of “be yourself”.
If a guy is going to dump you because you threaten his ego…who needs that garbage? Really…
I wonder if she’s really as intelligent as she thinks she is. I’ve found that a lot of people who hold their own intellect in high regard can be dismissive to the opinions of others and narrow-minded. I’ve had relationships with two people who literally regarded themselves as geniuses (nothing to really back that up) who turned out to be more like below average intelligence. Also, people like that tend to scoff and use sarcasm a lot. That’s not endearing in excess.
Amethyst – Couldn’t have said it better myself.
I think she has a point. A very very valid point. I also think that her presentation is a bit off-putting. I have watched myself, cousins and my circle of friends struggle to find men they can truly call a partner in life. The more education (not necessarily brains) and the higher powered the career the more difficult it seems to be.
I know, I’ve been told, that men run away the second I open my mouth. Now maybe that’s my list of accomplishments and education. Maybe that’s my presentation (sometimes quite blunt). Maybe that’s my passion and intensity when I get going on a subject I love (see pluto/moon in my chart). But the truth be told I attract men who either a) bore me because of their narrow view of the world or b) scare the weak willed of the rest of them. I am thankful to find a man who is as smart as me and as ambitious.
He’s not threatened probably because our skills sets are in SUCH different areas I’ll never enter his domain nor he mine. But he has one hell of a backbone to take me most days. He’s smart enough to argue the fine points of something. It’s a relief.
But, I would agree. Most men are threatened by a woman who knows what she wants. The secret. I don’t think that most women want a beta male. I don’t think that they want an alpha male either. I think they want a match. Someone who is AS educated, powerful, beautiful and talented as them. But when the statistics show that the women are outnumbering the men at college.. well.. it becomes difficult to find your equal.
I once said to a friend: I want a man who is smart, educated, talented, travelled, and funny.
He said that I was asking for too much. I said no! I’m not asking for anything more than I am.
I agree with you 1,000 percent
mudlikesubstance — On the contrary, I’ve dated loads of men who would be repelled at the thought of dating a stupid woman, much less a stupid woman who was full of herself. Not saying that whatsherface is stupid (at least not right off the bat), but hell — this is something that truly bothers me:
“Most men are threatened by a woman who knows what she wants.”
I’ve gotta call bullshit on that. A woman who knows what she wants gets what she wants. I have always known what I wanted, especially in a partner (Sun, Venus, Mercury in the 7th), and I’ve always gotten it.
That’s not to say I’ve hooked up with every man I’ve ever been attracted to. That’s saying, I want a smart, cute, kind, interesting man that I can go places with, and that’s what I’ve found. Without fail.
She makes some good points but none of them are really new and shocking to the point of being article-worthy. Men have almost always let women take the alpha role in the relationship arena. They find it all rather mysterious and some don’t care enough to invest the time / energy to figure it out. Whoever battles most convincingly for them will win.
There are two things that bother me about this (her theories). One is I know, if she or any man-less woman keeps devoting her energy to hooking up with a man she will. And I know who she’ll hook up with – someone like herself. And I can imagine this amazingly boring couple and their tedious achievement-oriented children .. do we need more of this in the world? If you check back with the writer she’ll probably be married or engaged in a year.
Second: ‘smart’ isn’t defined by society. Smart is an inward trait. She has some Capricorn-ish ideas she’s applying to the relationship realm that don’t belong there, to me at least. When she says ‘eligible doctor’ – would she say ‘eligible janitor’? Hell no. She’ll esteem who she’s having a relationship with based on how much society esteems him, based on his frickin job. It’s all outward, not inward. And it’d go something like this, when she’s at the next light social gathering, ‘I know five languages, and my husband is a doctor!’ He’s supposed to take his proper place in her achievement resume …
Then again I feel she’s perfectly entitled to her opinions. I don’t get my panties in a wad because I’m out of the competition for pursuing / winning the man. I just don’t go there (not enough energy, for one). And I’m very suspicious that women engaged in this theorizing (whether reacting pro or con to it) are being tools for The Man…They like to see you do this.
In their view it’s fun to watch women squabble like a bunch of chickens in the henhouse (Here comes the cock .. start preening!).
Piya – please don’t call “bullshit” on something I’ve watched in my circle of friends. I’ve watched friends, more than one, tell men that they’re lawyers and the men take off like they’re on fire. It’s hard to be the friend that hears the same story from not just one or two women but five or six. A story that includes a fair number of tears.
This from women who ARE accomplished and who just want someone to share their life with, have kids with, talk politics with.
I’m happy that you’ve always gotten exactly what you’ve wanted. I don’t think it works that way for everyone else out there and I was just relating the experience of my large circle of friends. Please don’t degrade real shared experience.
Why do you think you attract narrow-minded men?
My phrasing here may have been a bit harsh. I am sorry.
That said, I still believe that there must be something she’s doing that’s cockblocking herself, and you know what? I think it’s that she’s turning the relationship into a competition.
I don’t know about you but I could not be less interested in competing with my partner. I don’t care if I’m higher or lower up on the ladder than him; it has nothing to do with me. What matters to me is whether what he does is interesting (I am going to have a lot more in common with a journalist than an accountant, for instance).
And the kicker is, I don’t think most men care either.
t-carat, excellent point!
She misses the point – it’s not about dumbing down and not being yourself – it’s being receptive and in tune with another when out with them. I would find it just plane rude to be the man who asks her out and then watches her start speaking a foreign language to another person in front of me. It’s not about accomplishment or insecurity but about dating and relating. I could say I want x y and z in a man but if i’m out with a man that has x y and z and they start speaking in german to the waitress without including me in the conversation I will not be back!
There’s a reason for the dating rules and it’s not about playing dumb .. it’s about realizing it can take a long time to get to know someone so starting out with arrogant behaviour at the beginning is a red flag to anyone.
And picking one example of a woman earner and man nurturer is also way off. The man is secure in himself and his masculinity and that’s the key. And I bet she nurtures this feeling and then that’s why it works out. I also bet she wore a pretty dress and did her hair on their first date and he wore his broad shoulders and clean crisp white shirt and favorite aftershave. 😉
“it’s fun to watch women squabble like a bunch of chickens in the henhouse (Here comes the cock .. start preening!)”
t-carat – that is hilarious….and right on.
KM sounds full of herself. I wonder if women like hanging out with her, let alone men. Because ultimately, it’s hard to relate to someone when they do their best to exclude you. It just comes across as a put down of sorts – “here I am, and I’m better than you!” It’s cool she speaks multiple languages, but she’s with an English speaker…so speak in English! And as for her brains? It’s great to use it to engage others and draw them closer, but she wasn’t speaking Italian to engage her date on a closer level, nor was she talking ‘arty’ because he likes art. She did it to show off, and I’m sure it was a turn off. The most accomplished and successful people I know usually keep that stuff under wraps. No need to show off if you’ve already got it 😉 Perhaps her doctor date spoke Italian too…
At the end of the day, she is arguing that the best solution is for men to be submissive. I think we can all agree that it is wrong for men to demand women be submissive. Is it any less wrong for women to demand that of men? The very nature of equality is that we are held to the same standards. I refuse to be held on trial for the actions of dead guys I never met or people in third world countries I don’t know. I don’t have to kowtow to make up for their mistakes.
Purely by arguing in favor of a dominant/submissive relationship, you have lost all right to complain about men’s tendency to demand this from women…making this a self defeating argument.
And if you wanted to argue that her bigotry can be excused by “fact” that women are just meant/designed to go to work while men tend the children….women have breasts, men don’t, and keep in mind cavepeople didn’t have baby bottles- it shouldn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out who was designed for taking care of the children…keep in mind I AM NOT SAYING IT’S WRONG FOR WOMEN TO BE CAREER ORIENTED OR USE DAYCARE, OR BE PRIMARY BREADWINNERS, OR WRONG FOR MEN TO BE CHILDCARETAKERS…just saying that if the logic “that’s just the way it’s meant to be” applies to this, it applies to male dominance too. And unlike her, we have actual facts to back arguments for our oppressive regime up. Not that I am in favor of such a regime, just that such logic would serve the male case better.
In the end, my Mom wanted- really, really, wanted to stay at home with me and my brother when we were infants/toddlers and take care of us. My lazy dad forced her to go to work and earn money to support him.(we went to daycare and she eventually left him.) And she regrets, to this day, not being able to spend more time with us when we were growing up.
I think many women want to spend a lot time with their children, a possible side effect instinct of having boobs, and being the only one apart from another recent mother who could keep your children alive for the several hundred thousand years humans existed before baby bottles were invented. Notice the first reply on the list of comments on the first page.
That said, if a woman doesn’t want to stay at home, she shouldn’t have to. But I think some of you would be surprised by how many women to spend a lot of time with their children. My mother has multiple black belt degrees in martial arts, pulls 56,000+ a year, has an I.Q. like 150+, a college education…and she, educated, intelligent, and powerful, really wanted to spend time with her children. Women should be able to do what they want- but don’t be surprised if many women don’t want to spend all their time in an office.
That is an intriguing possibility, Elsa, your suggestion that Mars in the 12th house of unseen enemies manifest as an aggressively self defeating energy
maybe she is really not even all that sexual…she seems very “air” to me, combative, swords, maybe some fire. I wonder what her first house looks like.
Maybe she ought to lighten up a little bit now and then, long enough so that some Taurus or Scorpio moon or sun cock can come along and show her just what she is missing, because I don’t think she has had it yet; otherwise she wouldn’t be such a jerk. Maybe if she can shut up long enough she will learn to speak yet another whole new language…TONGUES!
So… too many worldly accomplishments prevents the woman from getting the man? Hmmmm. Well, take it from a woman with more than a reasonable number of degrees in higher education along with credentials up the wazoo who has never, not even once, let that get in the way of getting the guy. (other things yes, some times other things, but but not That). So, If you really want it, you must stop being so STUPID.
I’m thinking maybe too much Leo energy there, she likes the audience, she craves the attention (launching into another langauage at the table, oh Yuck, how do you spell ‘turn off?’); possibly too little Taurus or Scorpio… maybe not enough water? so when it comes to cock, truth be told, she can take it or leave it, that’s what it looks like for real. But even Leos get it on with their groupies, don’t they? I am stumped by this one.
whatever happened to love and trying to find a connection? is it all about matching the list of accomplishments now?
Yeah, reading this again I think it comes down to this: She’s probably not very fun.
I don’t know, just the vibe I get from her picture is that she’s probably rude to the wait staff, lol.
Well, I’ve thought about this. I was a Diane Court type in school (though a total nerd/ugly- just an overachiever sort) and the guys on my level did not go for me. I’m not terribly domineering and I don’t particularly TRY to cock-block, but it occurred to me at some point that I was going to have to get myself a Lloyd Dobler who would back me up rather than expect me to play second fiddle.
Well, eventually I got engaged to a Lloyd, and in some respects it was a good thing that one of us would do crazy things like stay employed. On the other hand, he would bitch that HE should be the breadwinner so I could “stay home” (and do what? Not only do I not want to be a SAHW/M, I’d go out of my tree real fast doing that) and stuff like that. He’d feel SO emasculated. And I was thinking every time he went into the spiel, well, you’re the one who can’t/won’t hold down a job or go back to school, it’s not my fault that you feel less than a man because I do and you don’t. That’s expected of all adults, bud.
I guess he felt like I cockblocked him, since he dumped me. But I don’t exactly feel like I was trying to take away his masculinity. He wasn’t stepping up and claiming it on his own here, was he?
Well I am a man, and would probably be described by most that know me as an “alpha male”, but have to say that I agree with Kate Mulvey. I am married to a beautiful and intelligent woman and I accept her authority in our relationship.
Personally I don’t believe in 50/50 relationships. A successful organisation or a successful marriage needs a leader and, although it may not suit everybody, in many relationships the person best suited to lead is the woman.
I’m sure I will come in for a great deal of criticism for expressing this point of view, but I am secure in my sexuality, do not feel threatened in any way by my wife’s success, and it may surprise you to learn that a great deal of men feel this way too.
I love my wife and she loves me. I want her to be happy. I am not a doormat, and my wife will carefully consider my advice before making any decision, but it is she that will make the decisions.
I urge, in particular the ladies, reading this to consider this lifestyle. Think about it. I do almost all the housework, she gets her way in all things and in the bedroom it is her satisfaction that is paramount – I get my pleasure from her satisfaction.
If you want to find out more about Female Led Relationships (FLR) join the She Makes the Rules (www.shemakestherules.com) web forum for some intelligent and well moderated discussion on the subject.
I know it was posted a long, long time ago, but I like Korellyn’s quote!
My first thought is that she is very rude to be speaking in another language in front of her date, who it appears doesn’t know Italian. Regardless of how intelligent she is and how many languages she knows, she was rude to exclude her date in the conversation.
reading this, I don’t think it has anything to do with her speaking multiple languages. it can be discouraging if you only speak one and have a hard time learning languages, and hopefully they don’t judge you because you are not as highly accomplished as the are. or look down or whatever. I think personally the guy was just not into her. He would have already known she was successful if this was a date, especially if they had met online dating because they would have their credentials on there, and accomplishments. So i’m just thinking…there is no chemistry. A man will want someone very much if he’s courageous and willing enough and passionate enough, but if he has no interest… the multiple degrees and multiple languages are nothing to him. He could take it or leave it. My brother in laws are with women who are highly accomplished, that didn’t stop them. Infact they are very very happy with that!
just out of curiosity- why do you think her date “suddenly” went mute when she ordered in Italian? what was so damn wrong with her ordering in Italian?? A woman can’t show off but a man can?? Please. (I have no idea what she said about Spanish women because that was not included in the excerpt.)
and yes! I have mars in leo trining Saturn and exactly squaring my scorpio ascendant- I am, indeed, a cock-blocker at times. It’s not always a bad thing. I have also been cock-blocked by other women incl. my mother most of my life.
I’m thinking about that song the oldest baby in the world.. she is a bit too strident. But she has writing skills. The men not going for more accomplished women seems like a sad truth though I wouldn’t know. She seems not to have empathy for some stuff. Her descriptions of her ex are cloying. She lacks wisdom.