Dear Elsa,
I am wondering about relationships where there a lot of Pluto aspects at work, deep intense crazy connections, that seem to be rearranging your inner organs, can they last?
What I mean is, if Pluto is transforming and obsessive, and related to death and rebirth, is it the kind of thing a relationship can have a lot of and survive? Is there sort of a built in time frame, a transformational process that naturally ends, or does it just keep working on you endlessly?
Curious
United States
Dear Curious, What a great question. Unfortunately I don’t think there is one answer to it. There is only theory and when theory is refuted by experience, then what?
In theory these relationships can last but my experience shows that typically they do not survive over the long term but get this: Superficial relationships don’t survive over the long term either!
What turns the worm for Scorpio and/or Pluto and 8th house types is when they opt to use their power to protect what they have rather than to destroy it.
Astrologically, this would mean the Scorpio acts their highest manifestation… the Eagle, which is pretty damned hard to come by. (Read Scorpio, Dr. Z on the Eagle)
If you want a real life example… refer back to my posts on the soldier and I protecting the perimeter of our relationship here:
Is It Jealousy? Fear? Possessiveness? Mothering Gene?
and here
Jealousy… I Love This Topic …where I got in all the trouble, claiming Italians will pluck your eyes out if you threaten their thing but…
But I think this kind of fierce protectiveness is exactly what it takes.
Anyone else?
I think that people who have that kind of energy natally are going to have an easier time rising to the challenge of a relationship that emphasizes the 8th house/Pluto aspects. I think most people live somewhere in the middle between the very intense and the very shallow. And I most definitely agree with Elsa that there are positive and negative ways to manifest this.
They wouldn’t just die necessarily; if the right energy was being expressed, they’d also be reborn regularly. You can’t forget the Phoenix quality, you know?
My understanding (admittedly limited) is that my husband and I have lots of Pluto energy in our relationship, and that rings true for me. We have an intense connection, and have gone through periods of stress where the relationship has had types of blowups and restructuring, but whatever was blowing up was always something that wasn’t serving, and the replacement was always something that was better. we’ve been together a long time, and have gone through this process a few times now. it’s not a lot of fun in process, but you come out from a place of renewed vitality when you’re through.
oddly enough, we’ve also been the “go-to” couple for friends and family going through a divorce. we’ve helped support several folks during the process. some ended up divorcing and some ended up returning to the relationship. but there is always a death and rebirth involved, obviously.
I have moon in scorpio conjunct pluto, opposite venus in 8th. I’ve pretty much had my fair share of “intense” relationships. To a degree in a certain perspective, I prefer them. Still, I can only take so much intensity for so long. A person needs a break once in a while.
I’d have to agree with goddess. Except for the advice aspect (this hasn’t happened in our social circle yet), my relationship pretty much follows what she said. Even though there’s been periods of intense internal stress and strife, it’s always lead to a solution that’s better than what we had before. Both of us feel a bone-deep connection and work to make each other stronger. All of which, incidentally, brings us closer!
We’ve been together seven years so far. 😀
Individually, we both have some Plutonian energy — I have Pluto-Mars-Venus conjunct, trine Moon in the 8th; he has a stellium in Scorpio, rising. And in the composite we have another Pluto-Mars-Venus conjunction, with Pluto in the first.
SaDiablo…maybe you still have a few years to go. 🙂 We’ve been together almost 19. And each of us has fairly solid Plutos as well. He’s a Scorp rising, matter of fact.
All relationships go through a period where the attachment-dependency factor peaks. That means for intensity in the relational attachment like during the honeymoon phase. To keep that peak going rather than coming down the other side towards interdependance will require all manner of means to keep it “up” there. Plutonian contacts are going to find a way to do that or instead to transcend them.
Some relationships (serial monogamy) creat a constant honeymoon phase with different partners. Others will use devices to break down the attachment in order to rekindle the intensity, such as make up love after a fight. The make up love is a very scorpionic, “rising from the ashes” kind of relationship which can be a roller coaster ride. Like with taking drugs this kind of attachment process gets tiring after a while and it does seem that relationships mature and develop into other forms after some time together.
kingsley
I have Pluto in the 7th house, Neptune sextile Pluto, Uranus conjunct Pluto, Moon trine Pluto, and Saturn opposite Pluto.
Does this mean i’m likely to have a Plutonian relationship, is this a lot of Pluto in my chart?
Just wondering if anyone would mind responding…
(trying to understand this stuff…)
i dunno, i think that plutonian relationships are what they are because of the very nature of pluto, and what it draws into your life. Basically anything that is unusual in some way, and this can either be intensly good! or intensly bad. I guess it would be hard to describe these experiences as they are often of a secrative nature.
Unless the pluto type (me) is hooked up with a non-pluto type (hubby). See this is “exactly” what I want.. the deep, intense, pluto relationship. Honestly I dont know why anyone bothers with anything less? Its difficult to be with someone who – in my opinon – wants to settle for less.
Debsy – it would refer to anyone with prominent Scorpio, emphasis on the 8th house, lots of planets in aspect to Pluto, Pluto in the 7th, Venus in aspect to pluto.. um, many ways to come up with the energy.
On your new man – if he is anywhere near the soldier’s age I am sure they know each other… there are just not that many SF soldiers or at least it used to be that way. They produce a lot more now then they did then. I can’t remember the count off the top of my head but it was something along the line of 5 0r 8 times as many as back in his day. They have relaxed standards, expanded the program I guess you could say.
Hey I have a good idea!
I am just learning astrology and sometimes it is hard for me to follow exactly what you mean.
Scorpio/Plutonian
Does that mean someone who has pluto in scorpio +/or pluto in the 8 th house.
I am involved with a scorpio moon and not sure of the rest but it really has been a bumpy ride. By the way Els he was a special ops commander too!
Goddess – I’m sure you’re right, and I’m not sure how I feel about that. *wry grin*
michele – (disclaimer-i’m waaaaay amatuer astrology student level), but YES, with 7th house pluto, i don’t see how your relationships could be anything but Plutonian-intense and transforming, and probably sometimes quite emotional with your moon connection. the uranus would suggest to me to expect surprises, unusual or atypical pairings.
the neptune and saturn could probably express in different ways – ok, well, anything can express in different ways – but i would be wary of a tendency to merge with your s.o. or sacrifice yourself too much in relationship, and would expect you to need to work specifically at processing the sometimes intense emotional factors and keeping yourself grounded in relationship. for what it’s worth… 🙂
SaDiablo- You know, I have to say that, as weird as it sounds, supporting folks going through that has really been an enriching experience. Not that I enjoy other people’s pain. But it’s really cool to see people move out of that and come to a better place, too.
My husband and I were actually talking about this last night, and he was saying when he sees someone going through it, it’s like he feels compelled to help. Not wants to be helpful, but feels driven.
“Hey, I’ve got this part of Hell mapped already! May I assist? Here, let me light the torch.”
Friends have also said that our own intense connection has been comforting for them through the process. Reassuring, I guess. Because our connection is both viseral and palpable. We both have strong Earth energy and with the Plutonian energy in force, it makes for a powerful pairing.
michele-the age difference would be one expression of the saturn energy, as well as possibly the uranus, yeah. if you are the older one, i would avoid mothering him.
Thanks Goddess.
I think I found Elsa’s blog because I was trying to understand this guy that I have been interested in.
Boy is it wonky. I think we’re getting all the shit out of the way before we get to the good stuff!!!
He’s a Scorpio as well, and I’m thinking he must be a Capricorn Venus. That’s all I know, so far.
Everything I check out about him is a perfect match. As a Scorpio he has that dark intensity in his gaze, and he has a great sense of style. If his Venus really is in Capricorn, it makes perfect sense, cause I’m wondering if we are ever gonna make it off the ground…
Btw, he did say that I was too much… (however he keeps coming around for more)(course I’m having just as much trouble leaving him alone)
And does a 17 year (ouch, and yes this is reflected in my chart) age difference qualify as “unusual or atypical” pairing? LOL He’ll be 27 soon. People have guessed my age at 26 to early thirty’s, so we don’t look too odd together (he said age doesn’t really matter) (well, not yet, anyway, eh?)
Great post, Goddess! #14
Especially your husbands comment.
I’m laughing Goddess :oP
There’s no chance of that. I offered to make him dinner some night. Boy, he shut me right down! (and I know it wasn’t about dinner!)
Nope, he has every intention of being the leader, and honestly I want him to take that position (unless I was to see him going way off course, I guess)
Every 2nd post lately just screams at me Elsa and this is another one. Sun conjunct Pluto, Scorpio rising, Moon trine Pluto, Uranus conjunct Pluto, Pluto in the 9th…I think this means I am a Pluto person. It’s been six months since my pluto-intense relationship ended & I am still hungering. I am not sure how to get beyond it until I meet someone else with the same other worldy intensity. Everything else is just so unsatisfying and meaningless. I have a great need for this energy in my life. I do feel like a ship without a rudder sometimes but I am trying to mobilize my personal power to sublimate those emotions into positive changes for me now. It’s not easy.
Debsy – I think I know who you mean (the chart) but my soldier does not know who yours is with this bit of info although he says if he was around in ’88, they probably know each other.
Also, the chart I am looking at only has two (outer) planets in the 12th so I just don’t know. It’s all very code!! 🙂
Hi Elsa,
He is not new he is the Leo and you have his chart! Imagine that!
He is 42 and was special ops starting in 88, he was a sniper too.
I just love learning astrology, it is so complicated. Thanks for the info.
Debsy
p.s. lots of planets for this guy will call him BOBO. Bobo has a full 12th house and I find that interesting since you have to be so stealthy in S.O. Moon in scorpio, do they read their charts before they let them in? Now theres a career for you!
That is an awesome comment, goddess! I’ll try and keep that p.o.v. foremost if/when I deal with that situation.
Your hubby sounds veeerrrry “with it.” 😀
I’m not sure I accurately expressed myself:
Thank you so much for the info, Goddess!
Anything that makes it easier to see through the haze…. :o)
I just counted on my fingers, and as someone that likes the truth, the age difference is fifteen years. Sounds marginally better! LOL
Why is it “fine” for this age if the man is older? Why does it seem so unbalanced if the female is older?
‘What turns the worm for Scorpio and/or Pluto and 8th house types is when they opt to use their power to protect what they have rather than to destroy it.’
Aha! The answer I’ve been looking for!!! Elsa you are a genius!!!!
Michele – nope 17 years sounds perfectly normal to me. That means that my step dad is only 5 years older than my guy. They get along great. That is the age difference between him and my mom. They’ve been married something like 18 years now. She looks way younger than she is so they are often taken as being the same age in their social interactions…and her biggest lesson in their relationship is to stand back and let him fail on his own. She’ll give him “I experienced this” which is common with such a huge age difference but a few years in learned to let him learn his own hard lessons instead of trying to protect/help. They’ve survived and have one of the “happiest” relationships I know of. They WORK at it though. He still courts her and they still (mushy, gah) celebrate a monthly anniversary. But hey, it takes what it takes and they’re very much better off together than apart.
Not saying that all age differential relationships are good, just that I know of one that is really really damned good. So if it works for you, don’t listen to what other say about details such as age. The question is “does it work for you? is it what you want?” IF so, lucky you.
This is such a great question. I was actually wondering about this today, which is quite the coincidence — is it ok if I go a little more on a personal note here? I was specifically wondering what this means — if anything — if you find a pattern in recent relationships/attractions.
I have a 12th Pluto, with some aspects to that (a conjunction and a sextile) but am also a Scorpio Rising with a Scorpio mars conjunct that. So I am finding that, three for three, of all guys I’ve been involved in/interested have Pluto in their first house. To me, that seems kind of like a pattern– for good or bad…I don’t know.
I can certainly attest to a transformative influence in all of these relationships — but I’m just about ready to say, “ok, that’s enough for now”, lol. Any insights, please feel free to share- thanks for listening 🙂
Jul – this is a good question to ask on the boards. You will get more attention there, as more will see your question. 🙂
Thanks Mudlikesubstance, it’s interesting to hear of people with large age differences that make it work–interesting and encouraging. I have never experienced anything like this relationship before and I have been learning to ignore what other people think. I have been learning to accept his love in the way that he is able to give it to me, rather than being swayed by other people’s opinions that it should be this way or that way. For eg. he only loves you if he does this, that or the other thing. Or he must not love you if he does such and such.
Sorry, I could have been a little more clear with that. I still worry about the age difference, so I do find it encouraging when I hear that there are people that make it work, and work well.
My friend with whom I have a Grand Cross in the Cardinal signs has many stress aspects to Pluto and the stress aspects in our Grand Cross are also Pluto and Jupiter. Our friendship is reborn a lot. He stops answering my calls for a year and then it’s back to the same intensity. Does the coming apart and getting back together thing happen a lot for you and the soldier because of your Grand Cross Cardinal?
“In theory these relationships can last but my experience shows that typically they do not survive over the long term but get this: Superficial relationships don’t survive over the long term either!”
This makes me feel so much better about my previous relationship. Thank you. My ex has a stellium in Scorpio and by the time Pluto in Capricorn is past 8 degrees, he will have had every single planet in his chart (including his NN) transited by Pluto by conjunction.
He is a very intense dude, to put it mildly. I like that kind of energy and am drawn to it like a flame.
I don’t think he means to tear things down–this is just his chart, is all. I still love him (deeply) but now that I am in a different kind of relationship, I can see more clearly, how the relationship operated. I couldn’t see the forest for the trees, so to speak.
I’m sorry, I made a mistake–conjunction with Uranus won’t happen, and conjunction with Chiron is yet to happen (his is in Aquarius).
Agree with Rox. Why would a Plutonic type settle for less? That’s not what we are after. It needs to be complicated, challenging, transforming, deep, intense, out of the normal. Only another Plutonic would appreciate this…
My Dad is a Scorpio Sun and my Mom is a Sagittarius Sun. And they’ve been getting along for 43 years now. Amazing.
I’ve had a long on/off but very intense relationship with a man who probably has Pluto almost exactly conjunct his Ascendant in Leo (I don’t have an exact tob), His Pluto is heavily aspected, by his Venus, Saturn and his Neptune
He’s an intensely Plutonic individual, and although he is very social (necessary in his profession) he’s also fiercely private to the extent of being secretive, esp where his serious sexual affairs are concerned – though he’s public enough about the passing ones.
These tendencies are exacerbated by a stellium in the 12th house of Sun, Mercury and Uranus. People have very strong reactions to him – he inspires strong love/hate – and for all his very public persona, I’d say very few people indeed really know him at all well.
Any relationship between him and a woman tends to be extremely intense but either very combustible or very short-lived (often both). Ours has been long-lived but very on and off – it’s proved impossible for over 20 years for either of us to walk away from it, impossible too to achieve any kind of serenity. We get back together – it’s very close and intense for a while; then no matter how tolerant or philosophical I am, his propensity always to push the boundaries to the limit will always create a bust-up… until the next time. It’s extremely exhausting.
In the end, there is a limit to what you can learn from a relationship like this since the ‘transformations’ become repetitive. But the Plutonium magnetism and psychic power of such people makes it hard to draw the obvious conclusion: enough is enough!
Elsa, just curious as to where/if you consider the Phoenix aspect to fit into the mix.
There are so many things in astrology we seem to have a hard time getting a clear consensus on. I’m familiar with the traditional heirarchy of scorpion > eagle > phoenix but have observed those who pick only one or two forms of scorpio or who add in an extra form, such as the serpent/snake. Just wondering what your 2 cents are on the matter.
@ eccentricvirgo – I can imagine it very well! My husband and I both have Venus and Mars in Scorpio, in addition to his Sun in Scorpio and my Uranus and north node. We’ve been together for over 16 years. 🙂
I really couldn’t tell you if they last, but I can’t have a relationship with someone without strong Scorpio energy. It’s not intense enough. My favorite ex was a fellow Mars in Scorpio. Imagine two Mars in Scorpio people dating!
Odd to read back and see my comment from two years ago. A lot has changed – including my knowledge of astrology. I have pluto in the 10th now. Ha Ha.
Oh wow Apple! That’s a lot of Scorpio! I like it. 😀 That’s so great to see that Scorpio lasts like that!
If the relationship is based on true love it will thrive and any test will justify and strenghthen the plutonian bond, any obstacle will not stop it, money, age, children, history… But if the relationship is based on sex and power or just plain comfort it will eventually self destruct. That’s how Pluto works in my experience it’s about the ultimate truth and destroys that which is not.
I think it depends where both parties are up to & how will they each are, to accept the inevitable transformation.
Grow or die.
sorry! I meant “… & how will ING they each are…”
“What turns the worm for Scorpio and/or Pluto and 8th house types is when they opt to use their power to protect what they have rather than to destroy it.”
Him – Scorpio Sun, Mars Jupiter Pluto Uranus 8th
Me – Pluto conj Uranus 7th
That explains things quite succinctly. I always try to protect what I have – he destroys wherever he goes.
Strangely I was thinking about scorpio and pluto types about a week or so ago.
I was puzzling the scorpion that wanted to cross the river who convinced a fox by reasoning to take the scorpion on the foxs back across the river and half way across the scorpion stings the fox. Why asks the fox. Because its in my nature.
I cant help thinking that sooner or later the scorpio/pluto type is going to get you, even if it damages themselves – its in their nature.
They will cut off their nose to spite their face.
Me and my husband both have strong Pluto influence on our charts, our relation, in turn, has strong Pluto aspects as well. I agree that it is easier to understand these energies when they are already present natally. And even if it is about death, continuous rebirth in a relationship is not a bad thing.
Had/have a Virgo friend and after being pals for years we simmered over the idea of being moooore…my Mars conj. her MC, Sun conj. her Venus. She had Pluto conj. my Venus/Merc.
Sorry to say but too much power and neither able to accede to the other. Never got to the real physical part but to this day needs to be stored in a safe place for Eternity…if it ever got out…LOL!
Was just thinking about my venus in scorpio contacts this morning. One virgo, one sag, one sucks me dry out the back door and one aggressively threatens me at the front door. Anyway, who I am to talk I have venus in the eighth but in pisces by decan (my mind has to say no to vindication).
For the sag venus in scorpio I love persona’s “I sting because that’s what I do.” It seems so simple, it’s just the way it is. But I can no longer play the game. It goes round and round and round, and never stabilizes or moves to a new level. With all her gemini planets, she is a master at working the communication network to get others to take down her prey, while she sits innocently by. She’s the one I am saying goodbye to now. This has been going on for 20 years. I’m a dumb ass.
I think that my vulnerability to this is a carry over with my SN in gemini, need I say 8th house cusp. Really am working hard to clear this thing.