I lack a friend who looks out for my adversary. I am actively brainstorming how I might fill this void…or even it if can be filled? Friends tend to see your side of things. It’s nice! But I feel I need someone who will be charitable to the person I oppose or who may be opposing me.
I do this sometimes in consultations. I defend the partner, that everyone else is piling on. It’s dangerous to constantly have your view on things reinforced. Before long, you think you’ve got everything in hand.
On the flip side, the “friend” who constantly sides against you may not be a friend at all. But I feel I should pursue this. I’m actually going to ask somebody if they think they could do this. If so, I see benefit all the way around.
This is Libra stuff of course. There’s another side to everything.
Air signs. Gemini sun with Aquarius moon here and I can totally step back and be logical without letting my emotions get in the way.
I think it’s very hard to do. Because people want to keep their friends, for one thing. And telling someone they are ten times the bitch, the bitch they think is a bitch, is pretty sticky, lol. 🙂
I’m asking this for a reason, though. A very good reason, because I want to find this in my life and number one thing – you have to trust the person.
Recently someone told me that they don’t trust anyone. So they’re out, right? They could never be involved in something like this. But I think I can…and I am going to try, provided I know someone who will try with me.
On that last, I’ll have to ask. But I am gathering opinions here, first. 🙂
I agree that people want to keep their friends and because of this they tend to keep certain things to themselves. But there has to be a mutual agreement about honesty because the reality that I have experienced is that most people don’t want to hear the truth. As I’ve gotten older I’ve realized this to be very true and it’s been a painful process but I have come to the conclusion that I would much rather be surrounded by people who tell it like it is even if it’ll hurt me because I have no more room for superficial friendships.
I think a Gemini will not balk from lying to you cause ‘white lie’. Probably a Sagittarius might blurt it out. I think some Scorpio Capricorn or Pisces might tell you. Scorpio because maybe they have a way of telling you when it needs to be done. Capricorn if they’re ashamed of your behavior and to be associated with you (I speak from experience). Pisces because they know (intuit) something and you asked.
I’m good at playing devils advocate. I see all sides at once. I also think its good to have all sides of an issue thrown out there. In a cooperative way of course, not opposing just to be an ass.
I can if you ask me to. It’s something that I had to work on when I was young (to quit doing – Libra – because it’s not something that most folks appreciate LOL.).
There is a thin line sometimes between being honest and being downright nasty. I seek out the truth but I am sensitive to angry energy and like to stay away from it. I do understand what Elsa is looking for… It is important to get authentic feedback about our actions as well as words. Who can provide it? A therapist? A trusted friend?
I present my friends with my Hyde and often they say ‘no you’re nothing like that…’ Or i want them to and sometimes they do it in a way i find unconvincing and i feel like its gaslighting. I have no Libra, the ‘other guy’ is either a stranger but usually the other side of me. Only one person, a stranger who is a 21 year old girl, i met at a bus stop told me ‘yes you are almost as bad as you think you are.’ And it destroyed me, I used all my energy to prove her wrong. Rather than to work with this information. I’m still haunted by what she said.
I could also use a friend (or therapist) like that, but they’d have to treat me with kid gloves I guess or else I just put up an ego defense. I wonder if life teaches you when you’ve been a dick.
Your comment really struck cords! the 21 yr old stranger is like the stranger on an airplane … ‘the company of strangers’ who can do that without ever showing up in your life again. I’ve heard things like that, too.
And your last line reminds me of one of Ben Stiller’s line from The Secret Life of Walter Mitty is almost word-for-word your sentence. My experiences have been life does just that.
Elsa … your search is a worthy one. For most of my life I didn’t ask/nor want that person in my life. I paid for therapists, but, it’s not quite the same thing. I think I count myself lucky at this age to have one very long-time friend who has slowly edged back into my life to serve this role. It’s a priceless gift I think. And again, back to you Erg, at first and even now she tells me she is cautious to ‘wear those kid gloves’ or a mantle of armor because of who she knows I can/have been so easily devastated, or a volcano. Over twenty plus years, we, this one friend and I have learned to trust each other. It’s foundational.
Thanks mokihana :). I have to tell you your comment made me think as well…and get defensive a bit :/ perhaps it broke something open and sorry if I rant. I had too much coffee and had to work this thing out.
because I don’t think at this juncture in my Pluto transit that this girl gave me a gift. Felt more like she shat on my life and also opened something up that throughout my life people reassured me and put a lid on. I’m the dwelling type and obsess over things I don’t want.
To be honest, it was one of the more harrowing moments and it still bubbles up and bothers me (because it seems my Pluto transit. I’ve consulted two authorities, one who is an astrologer who lacks intuition and someone who will know the truth but might spare my feelings. I don’t think it’s a ‘gift’ totally, but it opened me up and brought me to the possibility that yes, I could be my worst fear (she said I was on the sociopath spectrum or might be borderline and lack empathy…basically all my worst fears since childhood). Both agreed that the girl shat on my life and should have shut up. But I… I think there’s something I could work with.
Anyway, in my life I’ve had ‘deep’ conversations with strangers a lot, almost anywhere. (I find suddenly now that im ‘older’ and still want to talk to artsy young people, they think im less harmless and more creepy 🙁 ) I’m jupiterian and wanted to see where the story goes… I was more open to crazyish people who would butter me up by telling how exceptional I was or how ‘real’ and how I should definitely listen to them and embrace their worldview. They were sometimes too complimentary in their assessment of me. Guess they wanted to be nice.
I don’t know with my ego now who can give me the bitter pill so I can grow unless its a person with complementary synastry or a therapist. I am extraordinarily soft and egomaniacal and bitter
But it sounds like it has made you reflect and try to work on yourself, Erg, in a way that works with you! I don’t know what kind of person you are really. That would really upset me, too, to hear that I am my what I feared I was. It feels like the universe, through other people’s stories, puts me in my place. It’s so damned humbling. But I hope you find your way. I’m a believer in the universe putting things out there; we just don’t always read the signs or want to read the signs. I know it’s true for me.
allie120, my first response is always that I’m one of those people who can tell you exactly what I’m doing wrong and proceed to do nothing about it. Usually because I want the person to somehow negate it. A lot like the Key and Peele sketch ‘Bully.’
I am trying now though and I refuse to dck myself over by saying oh yeah you’re doing nothing about it. But see, there’s not a lot you can do when someone says to you ‘hey, yr just a nice sociopath.’ But, I know I must be feeling or uprooting something.
Since I probably am that woman, I need to comment. It is a hard role to be she who responds, confronts, challenges another. A dangerous often thankless job. Yet when we get feedback, ( I rarely get it) it provides an opportunity to reflect, change, alter, ignore etc the new information.
I in these wiser older times only give feedback to very few people and only if I feel they have little to no viewpoints other than their own. I also have to care about them because the risk is great that they will be hurt, mad, sad, enraged, or just plain pissed. Looking out for a friend includes warning them about danger, bad choices and adversaries. Very interesting topic.
This was in reference to Mokihana.
Because I have a watery sun, I used to side with my friends. Like, emphatically. But after I spent years dealing with sh** after a falling out and people sided against me without even knowing me or the situation, I was brought to the brink of suicide. That kind of one-sidedness is the mob mentality. And lemme tell you –it’s ugly to be on the receiving end of it. After people came to know me, then they realized what the other side of the story was but still–that slander campaign followed me.
Since all that, I’ve taken pains to still be empathetic but also very devil’s advocate and fair when friends approach me for advice. I try not to see it only from their view but from others they’re griping against. Very few people take the time to gather the facts nor to take responsibility for the problem in question.
Sorry that happened to you, O’Random. :/
Gang mentality can be tough
Hi Elsa,
Such a good post,
In life there are no coincidences. Today, right now was having the same thoughts,- about friendships, the meanings of it, the fulfillment without neediness,sharing silence but also outrageous joy together,appreciating the differences in each other without any opposition and still may be challenging each other in a friendly way. Like if you play guitar the other say: ” I want to play a guitar also”.
Damn challenging thing to do, – to teach someone to play guitar. Or doing poll dancing together,- it is such a cool experience to share.
I believe, Elsa, that you are a person of integrity. People like you are wise and self sufficient and full of adversary. This means you are not in need of anything at all.It is very cool so to find the same person, wholesome person, full of integrity and in complete absence of neediness. That person is out there, dreaming the same thing,- to meet someone to share similarities and challenging, enjoying the adversaries.
I am sure you will find such a friend. I wish you that from the depth of my heart. You know what, i will wish myself the same.
Like the courtroom, representation for both sides to weigh the facts before a decision is made on justice. It makes sense to me but that is only because l have a Libra Moon l guess. I think you should try this.
I do this with family because we’re not going to dump each other. 🙂 That’s the biggest fear. Although, if you have the person’s best interests at heart, and each person knows this, it shouldn’t be a problem. Knowledge is power, and this is simply information to consider, it’s not a personal attack. I’ve seen here in years past where someone asked for input then got insulted. Do we really think most people are bad? No. So if that’s the case, someone playing devil’s advocate is not someone saying you’re bad, it’s just another perspective that might help you make sense of something and work it out better.
People hate lawyers- I love them when they’re good ones. They talk straight, they don’t sugarcoat, they point out where your thinking is wrong, where it will not fly. They analyze the position of the adversary and see what the weakness might be in their own position. If I’m driving into a brick wall, do me a favor and point it out! Don’t tell me what a great driver I am.
I think it’s more people don’t want to receive dissenting opinions, more than people don’t want to give them. Shooting the messenger kind of thing.
The point of information is to be helpful towards finding truth, not upholding your personal sense of being right.
It’s an extremely helpful thing, in my opinion!
If you word it right a Libra would be a great candidate. What I do is figure out a way that I may be seeing the situation wrongly in my favor and then the Libra weighs it and says alternatives as to why it is or isn’t a correct view.
I think most female friends believe their friends ‘can’t handle the truth’ about their flaws… And even if I presented it I wouldn’t do it right.
I’ve found is that the ‘golden rule’ doesnt work. I keep my criticism to myself or say ‘nooo you don’t look fat’ because I wouldn’t be able to handle it. Fact is, people want different things and only by them telling you or careful observation will you learn. The reason I don’t tell people that their state of physical being is wrong (I.e. fat, tarty, etc.) Is that I know it might not serve them. It might hurt, how much weight can they lose in the 10 minutes I talk to them before we go out, etc. Probably theyre more likely to lose it if their pants start chafing, if they make new healthy recipes they like, if they find a fun new exercise and feel good doing it. It is something they probably know if they’re asking and unless there is a health risk they’ll move to it on their own time and not listen to me.
Often it is an off hand remark, a concerned observation, or challenge that forces someone like the famous people I’ve listened to on interviews to grow. And its usually laconic and delivered by an older person or authority (I.e. Richard lewis telling you to rewrite your 10 minutes.) I think a person who pushed you forward has to have strong synastry with you so they plant a seed in you and are able to communicate with you.
Louise hay says self criticism doesn’t work and only in an environment of self love can we grow and change for the better, I’ve experienced the truth of this briefly, all my insecurity was a large ego monster constantly nipped and bitten with self irritation, mosquitoes.
Sometimes, though, people are so wrapped up in their personal narrative that they don’t realize they’re being a dick. This is when a concerned remark like ‘dude, you’re being a dick’ opens them up to self examination. Many people have told me I’m being a dick or stuck in various negative patterns I rise above fire or water occasionally to correct them before going on in my defensive ways and all that
Hm. My best friends are 2 Aquarians, 2 Capricorns and another Virgo like me and a Libra, and we do this “hard truth” stuff for each other as needed for years now. We know its well-meant, not spiteful or etc. Sometimes you need to hear the truth about yourself even if you don’t think things are amiss, and sometime we ask “Hey–be honest.” Even if it stings, we trust and respect each other and it works and we learn and really, it’s good for us. We have helped each other grow from college onward this way. We’re lucky I guess.
I hope you find this sort of friend too, Elsa. Or maybe you have already, really — a board filled with people of different views right here?
Ten-ish years ago, a man living in the area where I was living, asked me if he could share his views with me (Pluto was in Sagittarius, and I was in Poop, in quite a few others’ minds, which is why he asked, because he thought, rightly, that I’m a lot like him: open to learning, especially relationshipwise).
In the course of that really fine, rich conversation, he probed my mind, my views (beautiful Pluto in Sagittarius model, in doing so – and rare, in my experience). Of course, I engraved what we shared in my biological hard-drive – it was all dense, and rich.. compost, for the spirit.
He and I discovered together: when I’m responding to a friend, I’m not a “yes man”. Sorry, I mean, I said, and he understood, *even with a friend*, if asked, I say what I really see.. by asking questions, probingly, as he was doing with me at that time. And that was a distinction that he knew, because, he has spent his life decoding the underbelly of communication (he worked as a salesman, but, that’s not why – simply, how he found it useful).
All of that, to say, Elsa, you might want a panoply of people with whom to cross-check your reactions. (I know I do.) I’d be honored to listen to you, anytime – any time my phone is switched on, because I have to turn it off to charge it – I mean, hey, my brain is yours for the asking, whenever. Because one of the things that impressed that guy about me: I will give you my full brain, when asked. (Mercury in Aries in 7th, seriously backed by Saturn in Capricorn in 3rd, opposite the keystones to my chart, Venus in Cancer, and Moon in Gemini, in 9th house. Each/both/either aspecting just about everything.)
So, please add me to your back pocket.. to use, or not.. :S
much love, huh? Poppy (aka, yanno)
Elsa, got a fortune cookie last night that said, “We find comfort among those who agree with us– growth among those who don’t.”
ElsaElsa is like one huge kind of kitchen-dining room, with bookshelves… surely I’m far from alone in seeing this place like such.
No surprise that so many who read here understand the important role of giving honest feedback to people we’re happy (Jupiter=luck – which, I actually don’t believe in – providence, yes) to be with, in the process called friendship.
As many of the people I’ve been graced to know, and/or cross paths with now, have said to me, learning to love is why we’re here. The first, most important action verb. Whatever the context of the relationship, the key element in it is to love, truly. To be present. Me, as me. Regarding they (English, my mother tongue, is awkward with pronouns) as them.
What great fortune, to have access to such a (virtual, and real in certain ways) place as this.