Loonsounds’ speculated what the astrology might be with these types: Internet Trolls, Ted Bundy, Exhibitionists, Narcissists, Stalkers, The Usual Suspects. I don’t think you can identify something like this from a chart at all.
If someone is a troll or troublemaker, you’d be able to look at their chart and determine their methods or MO pretty readily. You’d have insight into their drives and emotions but it would have to go in this order:
Horse —> Cart.
Because anything you can find in a chart and I mean ANYTHING has the potential to express for good or ill.
This may be counter intuitive but people who have a bunch of ease in their charts are often rotten bastards while the people with hard aspects may be compassionate and caring. This is not uncommon. It’s very common and if you think about it, it’s easy to see why.
People who suffer know what suffering and while some may pass it on, others do anything but. On the flip, people who have it easy in life (quite stupidly) think that others have it similar. They can be quite cold-hearted. You simply have to look at what a person is doing in reality. Here’s an easy analogy…
Expecting to read a chart in this way would be like looking at a pile of materials, string, glue, buttons, leaves, various colors and types of paper, etc. and thinking you can predict what the 8 year old will make out of it! We can’t even manage this with a simple inkblot. A chart (of a person) is far more complex.
You can say, “the man has a gun,” easy enough. But if you think you’re going to be able to tell whether he’s going to use the gun to terrorize, defend, kill himself, you’re exaggerating your skills.
I study people like Ted Bundy very extensively and, in fact, with no disrespect to Elsa, I have been able to create an astrological model which differentiates this group from a control group. It is a large study with 200 charts in the control group, and hundreds in murder, and murder suicide groups. I also have a longevity group of 200 charts. It is a fairly complicated model involving many, many variables, and I have not published my work yet because there is a statistical program that I need in order to do the final piece, and it costs a thousand bucks which I don’t have at the moment. It will be published within the year.
I was trying to abstain (trying to go out of my way not to sound disagreeable or provocative), but since it has come up again I just have to say that it pains me to hear the stretch of comparing plain old Internet Trolls, who are decidely a pain in the ass, with a very sick, twisted serial killer like Ted Bundy, a man who tortured women and took bites out of their breasts etc.
I was in that sorority house at Florida State during the same year he was, so I saw this pretty up close.
Loon – sorry for the pain.
I did not think of that angle – more like stops on the same continuum. I mean, that’s how these things wind up grouped together in my mind…
Yeah but……if someone looks at the astrology chart to discover personality traits, is that not the whole nature/nurture argument? Someone with a difficult chart, who had a fairly nurturing environment, vs. someone who did not? Or are we saying that the astrology chart also determines more than just the personality, but everything else in that person’s life (parents, siblings, friends, economic background, education), etc? Someone with a mother who saw that their child needs therapy, intervention, vs. someone who got no such help?
Dorothy – I wrote you a blog:
https://elsaelsa.com/astrology/2009/03/17/astrology-nature-nurture-and-free-will/
🙂
Thanks for that, Elsa, and I understand what you are saying about the continuum dynamic. Now it makes more sense to me, thanks for the explanation.
No Dorothy I am not saying that or anything like that. All I am saying is that I have found a model which basically differentiates extremely troubled human beings from a control group (Keep in mind, it is only one sample group, albiet one of the largest ones I have seen and therefore quite interesting). What I have found is that there are certain variables in combination which show a statistically significantly greater likelihood to represent the ‘troubled souls’ versus the control group. I also found a model which differentiates a group of people who live into their late 80’s and 90’s from a control group.
Not many people can stand to do research like this but my Saturn in Scorpio in the 8th house is very research oriented and it is extremely painstaking, but researchers are out there, and I might hope that we should try to give that support even though we have not seen a lot of findings yet.
By anothr way of example (and on the topic of astro-research) just today I got the April/May volume of The Mountain Astrologer and here is the title of one of the pieces of work. “Sun-Moon and Venus-Mars Ties as a prognosticator in Divorce. It is written by Alexandra Mark. This person is described as a “skeptical Harvard statistician” who is basically scientifically testing that particular astrological theory.
I was the same way, a skeptical statistician. I did not believe that I would have statistically significant findings but I did…lots in fact.
I have not read the article yet but it says that the author has demonstrated that couples with certain chart ties are significantly less likely to divorce. Is that interesting or what?
TMA also published a letter to the editor this month which talks about astrological research and it’s importance.
I believe that looking at charts individually is important too. Looking at a chart from a research angle (trying to note patterns) is a different type of research called qualitative research, my research is called quantitative research and it is exceedingly pain staking and time consuming as you might imagine.
I’m not being skeptical, and sorry if it comes out that way. I actually think it is all very interesting – I was a psychology major, and nature vs nurture, well, that is pretty much most of what we debated. As a parent, I have to believe that “nurture” makes a difference – yet I also believe we are born with strong personality tendencies.
I think being skeptical is a totally positive trait. Most of the affirmative findings that we have in the field have been major studies which have been done by skeptical researchers who are trying to prove a point, namely, that there is nothing whatsoever to astrology.
Loons, I find that kind of research fascinating. I have a book that has a few serial killers charts and some of their victims charts. There is sooo much information if I tried to take it in and do what you are doing my brain would explode.
You know now that I read it in a headline,, it didn’t cross my mind that it might NOT okay to quote something that was said to me in a private consultation and use it’s source (Elsa).
I hope I didn’t cross a line by doing that. if so, i’m sorry.
I was trying to make the point that looking at the chart or our charts together didn’t really show something nefarious i.e. his ‘diagnosed or undiagnosed disorder’ and i was citing my most respected source.
Mz Scarlett – no foul at all. I am the one who has that responsibility I’d say. You paid for what came out of my mouth so as far as I am concerned – it is yours!
“people who have it easy in life (quite stupidly) think others have it similar and they can be very cold-hearted”
Oh, that is so true and it bothers me so much when it happens.
“people who have it easy in life (quite stupidly) think others have it similar and they can be very cold-hearted”
Oh, that is so true and it bothers me so much when it happens.
Amethyst – it doesn’t bother me because if they’re bad enough they’ll probably end up with a life like the soldier’s next time so you know… go ahead and reap, ya damned fool!
This the most interesting conversation-in-the-comments I have read in recent memory. I just want to thank y’all!
Loon, way to go with your research! Can you use an evaluation trial of SPSS or R or something? Can you befriend a grad student who will run the analysis for you on their computer?
Hey Jessica, I already have SPSS (which cost a thousand bucks itself, since I am not associated with any company or anything). What I need now is an SPSS advanced program which runs logistic regression models since I have a bi-modal dependent variable in all cases, (and nominal data) eg, suicide yes/no, suicide/murder yes/no, longevity over 85 yes/no. So while I very much want to build a regression model, it has to be a logistic regression model. But in the mean time I have done all kinds of chi-square and T-tests and ANOVA and stuff like that, and wow, wow, wow do I ever have some interesting findings! But combined into a logistic regression model, it will mean so much more!’
That’s really cool you like research and stats Jessica, you really must check out the most recent The Mountain Astrologer. It is the first real (quantitative) research article I have seen in ages, and it is a blind study to boot!
I think being skeptical is a totally positive trait.
Loonsounds – I love this! Positive and skeptical- aren’t they just a polarity on the same spectrum?
We can all be both – just at different times.. 🙂
My natal chart is loaded with trines, an astrologer once said something about me having an easy life. I almost hung up on her. Anyone who REALLY knows me knows I have had one of the worst, most awful lives of anyone.
In Liz Greene’s book “The Dark of the Soul: Psychpathology in the horoscope”, she uses the horoscopes of several psychopaths as example, and notes an emphasis of grand trines in water, although not all. She notes that although there is no specific way to identify through the horoscope, there was a certain ease and flow to the energy which was, in this instance, psychopathic energy.
Trolls are a matter of opinion…I looked at the charts of serial killers a while back, and found some definite common elements…
Traditionally way back when the trine was considered evil just for the very fact of the ease. Slight of hand so to speak.
The Magi astrologers say that they know who is a serial killer. I only wonder why they put me into this group?
Collection of posts I have made.
I don’t think there are signatures for anything in astrology. For every world leader, sports champion, movie star, singing legend, astronaut who has been on the Moon, mass murderer, serial killer, or rapist, there are very likely hundreds, if not thousands, perhaps even tens of thousands, of people in the world with same day birth charts having the same aspects, VOC Moons, etc., who did not perform as they did on their most prominent day or during their entire lives.
Considering the lives of multiple birth siblings whose birth charts are virtually identical are perhaps the most convincing examples for this argument.
A. “Your story is a good example that there are no astrological signatures for anything. Not everybody with a chart very similar to that of a movie star, lottery winner, star athlete, mass murderer, serial killer, or any world renowned personality, lives the same life – too bad for me. I was born less than 6 hours later than Neil Diamond.
Aspects may indicate tendencies of a certain nature but what those tendencies may be applied to and how they will be played out is up to each individual. Probably not everybody born on the same day as you, with even the same angles as your chart with only the Moon in a different degree because of a different time zone (to get the angles the same or nearly so) became addicted to alcohol, perhaps not to anything at all. On the genetic and astrological scales others with a very similar chart to yours had parents with different genetics and most likely different charts than your parents. As Edgar Cayce said the planets are only influences but they are never stronger than the person’s will.”
B. “Let’s expand it beyond twins to sextuplets and the 5th house (of children I think. I haven’t used houses for years.). Will all of them have children on the same day? And what if the multiples are not the same gender – would not the experience involved be physically different for a male and a female twin even if they both became parents on the same day? Expand as much as you desire – multiples will not have the same experiences at the same time and probably not even within days of each other. There are cases of one twin murdering the other.”
C. “In most cases I suspect that it is not the norm for all siblings of multiple births to get sick, get married or divorced, have children, get jobs, lose jobs, buy homes, get foreclosed, have surgeries, be a victim of assault, die, etc, etc, etc, at the same time. How many astrologers could correctly decide what was going to happen to whom, with certainty, no matter how “good” they are perceived to be nor what rate of success they may have demonstrated?”
D. “I have repeatedly stated my position that having only the Sun, Moon, and eight planets to apply to an uncountable number of possible manifestations that there can be no astrological signature for anything, only correspondence noted, and beyond a most likely positive or negative, easy or difficult “prediction” in regards to such correspondences everything after is guesswork.”
E. “Just as no “astrologer” could determine race, gender, body type, sexual preference, or if the subject was a living thing (human, plant, or animal), inanimate object (World Trade Center, Columbia Space Shuttle), or a Presidential term, political entity (New York City), I do not believe effects, other than positive or negative, happy or sad, fortunate or unfortunate, may be postulated. Nor is it possible to determine if an expected experience will be physical or mental. That being said, with some knowledge of the subject of a chart, it is possible to make an “educated guess” that could be considered “in the ballpark”.
We only have 2 luminaries and 8 planets to indicate an infinite number of possibilities. The best that can be done in reality is to get the date and a time within a 4 hour window if a place is known and to surmise if conditions will be difficult or easy. Anything beyond that is guesswork unless it is known what particular activity a person will be involved in on that date, at that time and place.
Remember that we experience life at a physical, psychological, and cellular (such as when a cancer is growing without our knowledge) level, so not all contacts will manifest in a manner we notice.
Even with exactness of planetary placements in relationship with the angles or other planets in a chart there is no exact prediction of what will come to pass. If anybody believes otherwise, I have a life span of almost 77 years, a timed birth chart, and have lived through the conjunctions, sextiles, squares, trines, and oppositions of all of the outer planets to all of my natal planets and angles and would enjoy their interpretations detailing the experiences of any 1 of those transits. A ballpark of positive or negative, easy or difficult, is all that may be forecast without intuition or a ‘sixth sense’ playing a role. How could it be otherwise when you have but 2 luminaries and 8 planets with which to describe the countless experiences which occur every moment in the world?”
It seems people here are not much interested in Vedic astrology, which is far more exact than Western astrology. The astrology systems of East and West are different, which makes people in the East fatalists and people in the West believers of free will. It’s even possible to know why and when someone’s going to die with Vedic astrology. It’s –almost- pure mathematics. Western astrology is very open to interpretation, when compared to the Vedic system.
These said, I personally find outgoing, social people more inclined to the what I call “daily evil”. They may not cut people’s heads off when they’re angry, but I find them to be insensitive, selfish and overreacting to little things. Cheerful, social people show ugly behaviour far more often. Whereas “revengeful introverts” might be so compassionate,and understanding because they understand human nature better.
Was the word after “insanity” a pun?
It is from 2009. I already fell into this trap, like I reported yesterday.
An astrologer I used to see once told me that those will lots of trines and no difficult aspects tended to stiff him!
Many harmonious aspects doesn’t necessarily mean no difficult aspects and vice versa. I knew one friend with no difficult aspects (except perhaps one semisquare) in the natal chart. She told me that she always feels bored. That was not just a mood, but the description of her life for her.