Hi Elsa, I’ve got a question. What do you think drives people that go through life using and abusing others? Using any opportunity they can to benefit? I think the term ‘Narcissist’ is used maybe too often, I mean, can ALL these types of users/abusers be Narcissists? How can they move through life knowing what pain they inflict and not be affected?
Thank you from the UK
I don’t there is one answer. At far end of the continuum, you have psychopaths. People like this discover early on, there is something different about them. I’m talking about the classic, “hurt or kill animals” when young, time person. It may be possible for someone like this to opt not to hurt people, but I’ve personally not seen it. Thinking logically, there is no motivation for the to stop because they’re not affected.
Another class might be those who grew up like I did, but factor out my grandfather, who was very good and high-minded. In a case like this, cruel and thoughtless behavior is modeled for you. If there is no alternative model for you emulate, chances are very high you’re going to express like one or both of your parents. This is particularly true if you’re isolated in any way.
People in this class, who are not psychopathic themselves, are likely to suffer consequences and may renounce the crappy things they learned from their family. They’ll find other role models and “copy” them, so to speak. They make the switch to “normal” behavior.
FYI, I think there are a good number of people like this, who read this blog. It’s common people arrive, acting an ass and then calm down and begin to morph. Maybe one of them will speak up, but whether they do or not, I know this is true. You can be on a bad path, and veer off it, it you choose.
There is another class which is HUGE at this point in time. These are people who have been socialized or programmed to be selfish and self-centered. I realize I piss people off, but this is easy to see. Turn on any tv show, go to any website, any commercial, anything… anywhere. The person will be modeling negative behaviors, without fail.
I’m suggesting we are sorely lacking in people who set and example of good, moral behavior. I’m talking about the basics. Keep your word. Treat people how you would like to be treated. Don’t lie. Don’t talk behind a person’s back. Pitch in..
You don’t see this. modeled. You’re taught to put yourself first. To indulge yourself. To prove your worth by owning things… literally. “It’s Loreal, because I’m worth it”. People don’t want to help the other person; instead they’re consumed with being better then them, at whatever cost, including their soul.
These are my thoughts and here are your questions:
What do you think drives people that go through life using and abusing others?
Everything mentioned above and also because they’ve been taught it’s a way to get ahead. This takes place in dating relationships for Godsakes. It’s all about getting what YOU want and the cost to the other person is not considered.
Using any opportunity they can to benefit?
This is taught, in my opinion. By the family or origin or by the media. I’m messaged all day long, essentially, if I am not screwing people over, then I am dumb and will be left behind. That threat is enough to motivate a good number of people. People don’t like to be seen as stupid. All the cool, famous people are doing this and saying that, so they follow suit.
Only 20% of people (at best) are leaders. If we only give them, creeps, to follow, what do you think is going to happen?
I think the term ‘Narcissist’ is used maybe too often, I mean, can ALL these types of users/abusers be Narcissists?
I don’t think they are. There’s “narcissist” and there is “acting like a narcissist”.
How can they move through life knowing what pain they inflict and not be affected?
Assuming they are not psychopaths, they are affected, but there is so much reinforcement of this kind of behavior, coupled with the lack of good role models, it’s a rare bird that’s going to repent or reinvent or whatever. That’s way too hard. Most people take the path of least resistance. To do otherwise takes grit and determination, as you will be punished if you try to pull on to a new life path.
Last, just an offhand comment, Jupiter is often implicated with people like this. People who have no humility and no interest in such a thing. They just want more cowbell… I hear it’s available on Amazon.
What do others think?
I think this is a very large and complex question for one blog post. Maybe the surface would begin to be scratched after an entire libraries worth of books.
There are a few different things with this. But I do think the term narcissism is getting somewhat overused. I think the term is used to describe normal relationship issues and fairly disgusting abuse spanning decades. Or it might in some cases be the abuser themselves scapegoating their target. I think it is legitimate less than 50% of the time. But where it is legitimate it is very legitimate.
When someone says a person is a “narcissist” or “borderline” I never take this at face value. But one of the many lines I have concocted in my head is that if someone is going to use the term “borderline” they have to be palpably afraid of the person. It’s not just a term to describe hormonal shifts it is far crazier.
The reason people do a lot of the mundane nasty crap is because it has some sort of utility. Why do guys act super hard and such? Because a lot of girls, a lot of the youngest and most attractive girls, like “bad boys” so it gets them sex. It has utility.
When it comes to “evil” though, I heard once that there is something in Christian/ Exorcism circles called the perfect possession. Where the person that is possessed and tormented, is pushing against the demon. There are people walking about that never have any issues with doing what the demon says, so there is no conflict, and they seem normal. I think this was partly from the M. Scott Peck book “People of the Lie”. I think this is a strong element in actual evil. Evil by it’s very nature cannot be analysed or understood in any way in my understanding. It just has to be kind of avoided and sometimes fought against.
Being a bad person is the easiest thing. Some people lack self discipline and have an underdeveloped super ego… How that could be reflected on a natal chart? Maybe Saturn and Neptune in a bad aspect
The most important rule in life is the 1st law of thermo dynamics:
The nergy in a system will stay in that system. Over time, the energy will adapt to its surroundings, and the cold glass of water in a warm desert will become lukewarm, while the warmth in the desert will become the same (figuratively speaking).
Charles Darwin too: the most important survival skill is the one who is intelligent enough to adapt.
If you have cruelty around you, you adapt. You have to split your personality and sense of who you are, the worse conditions you are in, but the survival mechanism is strong in all of us. So, we adapt. Even if it means to give up yourself and your what you think is right or wrong.
It takes tremendous effort to change the energy in your closed off thermal system. But some of us aim to. Transformers are badass and stronger and braver than any species here on earth.
That is very interesting.
In my system of study one of the principles that effects the negative is entropy. Amongst these highly negative extra terrestrial groups their genetics can actually disintegrate through entropy. It took me a long time to understand why.
I had not considered applying other scientific principles to people and systems in the same way but this seems to fit. For me though, it is likely that heat is love and positivity. So when love is applied to the system people are nurtured and protected they develop positive strategies and “grow up”. The dysfunctional effects come from the lack of love given. Which is why neglect is known as one of the worst forms of abuse. (I think it is sexual first, then violence, then neglect. I might have that wrong).
I agree that entropy can affect the outcome too!
But heat and love is not always enough. You give and give – but the other is like an endless pit where it cannot land, due to various brain damage … As we know, emotional disorders often stems from the brain’s development that got “screwed” up while it aged. You are quite literally, brain damaged, and to reverse engineer this damage due to its plasticity, takes a lot of ongoing work. Depending on the damage of course.
The brain damage not only affects the emotions, it also affects how the hormones, cognitive and digestive systems function, hence the “gut-brain axis” and the stomach being our “second brain”.
The person must be willing to work on this in their life, otherwise, they will just (ab)use others. That’s what I believe at least 🙂
Apologies for the length of this. I realise this will be quite long.
“But heat and love is not always enough. You give and give – but the other is like an endless pit where it cannot land, due to various brain damage … ”
This changes the analogy away from where I think it was, in relation to child development , and this towards an adult relationship it sounds like.
The way entropy works imo is that if you have an entity that has ‘polarised’ along the negative. They have to suppress a lot of themselves. However, this can only go so far and if something internal to the person pushes back against this, then it disrupts the negative heirarchy. In order to classify for negative graduation a person has to be extremely strong in order to resist this entropy.
This is all rather scary and maddening stuff. I realise that. But it is very helpful I believe in the grand scheme of things. Since the negative in our society is subject to entropy as long as the right levers are pulled. Which is what is happening.
A physics based understanding of entropy is ice melting. When heat is applied the energy increases and eventually individual molecules gain so much energy they break out of the bonds formed from the cold.
This is the problem the negative has, they can walk along their road of suppressing everything and doing heinous things like genocides and such. But every so often due to entropy their energy fields collapse and they lose entire sections of their armies.
That also works in relation to the thermodynamic law that we were discussing in relation to love and heat, which also explains why the negative collapses when love is sent to it. Why mass meditations and such in theory work.
In relation to adult relationships I really can’t say. But I will give an example as to how this might be misconstrued. Like, how someone might end up believing they were in a narcissistic relationship when this is not the case.
I follow a bit of red pill content. Some of the experiences I have had to show the correctness of this understanding of psychology are unquestionable. I am surprised sometimes people act so in line with it. I have had others previously that disagreed with this. So I always keep these understandings as an option not a sure thing. But I find the understandings basically reliable often.
One of these videos that came up on youtube the other day was by a guy who runs courses and such for men to improve their lives, we will call him Michael. He is ex military and talks a lot about leadership and such. Frame and all that.
Part of what Michael does, part of what he says is important in relating in life is to have an instagram, social media, where you show off women and successful things you are doing. This is extremely keyed to female psychology in his telling of it. Women being very much about status and such in his view.
Michael takes these guys that have a girl in their lives that they can’t get. We will use an analogy for this guy called “Rob”. That won’t sleep with them. They are usually pining after this girl, idealising etc. and being rejected, and it is often a motivation for men to improve themselves. (We’ll call this girl “Amy”).
So Michael walks Rob through his programs. Teaches him how to talk to women in general. Soon enough he has success, instagram improvements, girls hanging off their arm etc.
Then Rob goes back to Amy and she sleeps with him fairly easily once the game has been learned. But often now, with Rob having more options and such it doesn’t really last and after he has slept with Amy he moves on.
What happens then? What happens then is that Amy gets incredibly angry at the guy and starts going around calling him a “narcissist”. So what happened?
What happened is that had she have accepted him when he did not have all the options, it might have turned out well. But the guy has been invalidated at her rejection all that time, so that has cheapened the eventual prize when it turns out it was not worth the effort. There is a price to overvaluing a product.
In this case, Amy perceives that Rob is a narcissist. But actually it is just a relationship dynamic that, arguably, came from her disproportionately valuing herself initially.
So this is why the concepts of “love” and “heat” as such would not change anything going from Amy to Rob. It would also feel to Amy that any energy she put towards Rob was lost because he doesn’t need her, he has too many options.
It is also unchangeable. It is highly likely Rob has met other girls he prefers if he has many options. To stay with Amy would be to be faking. The ‘love’ sent to a positive person only lets them do the best for themselves.
This is why once you get to the concept of adult relationships the entire “abuse” dynamic is a bit different. To go back to the thermodynamic concept it is not a closed system because each partner has other options.
Of course there are some real abuse situations. But there is also the possibility that a gap in perception is where the root of the problem is. In this example, Amy will gain nothing by calling Rob a narcissist, just guys with options avoiding her, to guys, a girl that uses the term narcissist: If she is telling the truth she is mentally damaged and attracts/ chooses nutjobs, if she is lying then you will be called a narcissist next. It is not the same as a child being absolutely helpless to the whims of their parent who has complete power over them.
I am sorry, Phoenix. I think I misplaced/misread/misunderstood the word “entropy” with the word “fetus” – or had it placed in the same box as fetus, at least. Because then, yes, we are definitely talking in two different directions here! My bad 😉 I will read your reply when I have better time than now. Sorry for this, that was a brain fart on my part, – in a very big way! I am not born English , just understands most of it – but apparently there are gaps in my vocabulary as well 🙈🤪
Good topic because I experienced this last month.
I thought how did we get to this point? after I was let go, and the answer was simple. Stupid rolling the red carpet out for stupid.
I got in trouble for sounding “judgemental” to a woman who wanted a behavioral euthanasia. Now imo the situation didn’t call for it. I thought I tried to keep my feelings out of it, but I guess not.
I’m not sure if they lost her as a customer, but if I had to guess…yes. That was when the business manager got his nose into my business. The guy who I said in a forum post was retired military, but not on Elsa’s husband’s integrity level at all. This guy abused customer service reps and UPS drivers. I heard it all. I was absolutely appalled at what I heard, and knowing me with Aries rising, I must have looked at him with complete disgust. Now someone like that isn’t going to take judgement from anyone, much less me who lost a customer, well.
A week after my first crappy review, you’re gone, bye!
I recall a few people looking upset that day. I think I know why now. They knew what was going to happen. They knew I could probably turn it around – I had enough good qualities – if I had time to. But the fact was this jerk wasn’t going to waste one second more on me, since I and the position itself were “wastes of my (!!!) money”. 🙄 He wasn’t the breadwinner!
That’s been part of my problem with the entire concept of the workplace pretty much since I got into it. I don’t tolerate fools well at all. And yes, I try my best to keep my ship upright, but with three difficult to manage mental conditions, it’s hard. I’m responsible for my ish, but when willfully stupid people mix with it…disaster occurs.
Anyway my point was none of what went on with my situation was psychopathy or narcissism. It’s people who learned somewhere along the way that being demanding, whiny and entitled gets you places.
Businesses and other people bow to jerks because they’re afraid of losing $, a bad Yelp or Google review, or their job. This culture didn’t exist when I was a child or teen. It slowly appeared after Internet access for all and bottomed out with Covid.
I have been deep caring for my 89 year old father for five years. I have come to the conclusion he is narcissistic, at least in some aspects. I feel it is a word pretty haphazardly thrown around, but here I am throwing it around. Because, this is the common word to use for the behaviors, society instantly understands what the victim is going through.
Someone on a support group led me to look into generational trauma. I am still trying to read into this but the little I have read makes sense without succumbing to using the umbrella of ‘narcissist’. He is a child raised after the depression which explains the hoarding, security issues, need for control at any cost. He’s also a Cancer. (no offense to Cancers, they are some of my favorite people). He has always had the ability to completely dismiss people from his life. Some he lets back in after months, others are just written off for good.
His cognitive decline makes it easier to see the behaviors and reflect back on how I was raised which helped create my current value system. Then I compare my values regarding caring for my parents to my three siblings, whose value systems are astonishingly different than my own and wonder how this can be? For one, I am a Sun conjunct Vesta.
Their indifference/hatred from the siblings is very isolating and damage has been irreparably done. I suspect this is part of how trauma continues along generations. It would take a herculean effort to heal and repair four sisters relationship from childhood to this point, when the behavior of the father was to create separation. Why did he separate and make his children feel less? One can only speculate it served his own ego in some disgusting manner, perhaps due to insecurities and/or lack in his own childhood upbringing. Certainly, he was unable to provide love. Thank god my mother did.
Offered as a tiny example of the spectrum of narcissist (or perhaps psychopath?).
I’m 65,driving a school bus last 10 years on tiny island; many students I know many of parents when they were children and grandparents because I live on tiny island scenery and folks are a daily repeat in short you see too much recognize most inevitably get an impression. I hear lots of stories from children?? kids, repeat how they are treated to others. I have an unfortunate opinion of the schools lately, on their labeling over labeling of children with a condition for a money-grab from the federal government. It makes a serious affect on the dynamics of the family, the fear that their child has a problem, and the school has a power over the family to disrupt normal life it’s overwhelming. I’m hoping what’s coming next. Will change all this, but about the abuse of others if I had the opinion when I was a child here that some parent was mean man their kid turned out being mean now they are mean parent now they have a mean child it’s a cycle I think largely diet is ignored. I have a man I’m friends with fond of and he’s always saying his son is autistic and I find the boy a great kid no problems I have some children on my bus that are afflicted with the problems. This kid doesn’t seem to qualify in my opinion , however he’s also bus driver so lots of us get there early 5:30 in the morning till six just chat relax one morning he brings his son almost every time he mentions him he tells me he’s autistic. I tell him I would disagree I find the kid great kid get along , he tells me no sometimes he gets really mad. The boy pops his head up from the backseat of the car. Had a tooth pulled out so he has to go to work with dad at 5:30. Dad has given him a soda as a treat for being a trooper I like the guy but really you think your son has an emotional problem and you don’t think feeding them soda pop 5:30 in the morning is a poor choice for breakfast. I can’t make an indent on his thinking I think you grow up repeating what your parents did hoping to be better than them but it’s repeat …Some folks will not give up sugar??This applies to teachers too:( as St Patty’s day
Gets close watch how many teachers who cannot pass the candy aisle decide to bring a child a gold covered chocolate coin to tell them about a leprechaun riding over a rainbow spoiler alert. There aren’t leprechauns handing out chocolate candy to children. It’s people who have a sugar addiction I’m not saying it’s a source of anger or abuse, but I guarantee it’s never missing in that puzzle. Just my opinion, I had a bad experience as an eight year-old at the dentist. I really have abstained from sugar and alcohol fortunate never gonna be able to afford cigarettes or drugs. People do get by without that shit sorry that’s just the appropriate word.
I agree with this… and some kids don’t know!
A single mom we know, was having a lot of trouble with her 16 year old son. She wanted him to stay with us for a few weeks; my husband could guide this boy?
So he’s drinking 3-4 monster drinks a day. I was stunned. How can they pay for this… very poor family.
Finally, I said to him, “What the hell are you doing? You’re a VIRGO!”
He knew he was a Virgo. He didn’t say anything and a year passed. He came back to visit us again.
“Monster?” I asked.
“No I quit those after you told me they were no good for me.”
I was stunned.
I’m not much of a football watcher but I generally support the Eagles since they’re the home team. Years back when they won the super bowl I saw this one player on the field who actually gave me pause. Like, who is that? I wondered. Usually I see a bunch of football players and it’s all raw masculine energy etc. This player seemed different, for lack of a better explanation, it was all instinctual on my part based on simply seeing his face. Jason Kelce is his name. He’s pretty famous now. Anyway, he just gave a retirement speech and I decided to watch it, and all I could think was wow, what a great guy. Family man, always looked out for his brother, grateful, seemingly humble, etc. Role model. And everyone ate it up. When given the chance, people will authentically gravitate towards it because we’re starved for it. And it’s amazing when people can maintain themselves in spite of being surrounded by constant examples of the worst of humanity. I mean imagine coming out of the NFL with your family and personality in tact. Amazing to me.
A few years back, I came to the sad conclusion that dark forces/evil truly exist. Being nasty fuels these entities and they thrive whilst being abusive and causing pain. They sleep perfectly well at night because they don’t possess a heart or conscience.
Thankfully, there is also much beauty, and many beacons of Light on this plane. We can protect ourselves by continuing to give out light and love and walking alongside kindreds. Goodness prevails.
Amen, Hades Moon.