I am exposed to disturbing things / signs / trends on a daily basis. I am wondering how long I can maintain what I consider a normal standard when the people around me compromise their integrity and act in ways that are immoral but (perhaps?) necessary for their survival.
We know a man cheats at every turn… so that he can feed his family. It’s a way of life. Cheating, stealing, cutting corners, taking advantage, screwing the system, manipulation, lies, etc. So what do I tell my son about this? Do I tell him to do the right thing unless certain conditions are met? What are the conditions? At what point can he disregard moral law and join the (swelling) masses of people who live by no law and justify everything they do?
I am asking these questions because I have to answer them. I don’t want my son to cheat, steal, cut corners, take advantage, screw the system, manipulate and lie. I also don’t want to tell him a person is not responsible for their own behavior because of some entity like a political party or “bankers” or “big business”, because that’s not real. If you put your hand in the pot and steal, it is YOUR hand. However, I’m not keen on condemning others, especially when I don’t know their exact circumstances and this all makes me feel intensely uncomfortable.
I also feel sad. I come from a terrifically hard place and I never thought I’d have to go back there. I wouldn’t feel so bad if I wasn’t a mother. But I am a mother.
How do you feel about the world around you at this point in time?
I have always known people acting the way you describe. It’s out in our faces now.
Not being a mother, I can’t relate really. Maybe if you could convey to your son that once you get comfortable with one small illegal thing, it’s much easier to move on to bigger worse things.
Disappointed.
I am a mother and I feel very uneasy about the future of this society. The fall of Rome comes to mind… you know? I often think about things like how to raise happy kids in the middle of this cultural cesspool, what one can do to contribute to a solution, and what to do to prepare for an uncertain future. :/
A-Rae – I’m with ya. 🙂
My taxi ride to the train station in Hospet India was a young man about 26 years. We conversed and he shared he had a wife and two small children. His auto rickshaw was a rickety mess. When we arrived I offered him a tip of 20 rupees and he refused. I insisted so he took it and off he went returning with bananas and chai tea he’d purchased from a road vendor for my trip.
An incredibly gracious gesture.
Now I imagine that he’d be criticized by many for not looking out for his family.
I’m trying really hard to maintain faith in our young people that they will be able to handle it. As for the scenario you describe, there are just as many backward ways that work as forward ways. The backward ones are being illustrated a lot right now. But, I think if we give them BOTH examples then I believe the right one will be chosen. Like, what if you told him how this guy COULD feed his family without being underhanded. You know this guy won’t maintain getting away with this stuff forever. So, just as your child has seen the “bad act” also point out the guy’s downfall when it happens. Yeah, you can do the underhanded way, but look what happens.
You talk about morals. They have to be taught and unfortunately, I think this practice has fallen off the priority list for some.
Pluto Libra and Pluto Scorpio can vascillate from the good extreme to the bad pretty easily and there are some who will go the bad route because it is often the first option they think of and the path of least resistance. But, if shown alternatives, they can be swayed. You know, I havent looked at Pluto in Sag tho. I’ll have to think about that one. And bless our little Pluto Caps..sheesh.
I too have been thinking about past societies recently. My boss recently went to China and came back and said how China was definitely the emerging society. We then briefly talked about how the US was in decline like the past societites of Greece, Rome and Egypt.
I’ve often wondered what it was like while they were declining because, obviously, those places and people still exist.
I agree with Tam. I have known people to behave this way prior to current events. I would always amputate because I was scared I would be next to be taken advantage of.
I guess that the current climate had made the ranks swell and/or made those who do this already bolder.
I am not a mom so I wouldn’t know what you would tell a child. I am scared of having children for that very reason.
Like what will the world look like in the future?
I think letting them realize that you can’t justify your actions based on what someone else does also helps. Just because x did something wrong it doesn’t mean when y does something wrong that it is an ok reaction.
I am disappointed in the present state of affairs, and stunned at the depth and magnitude of it. I think that it challenges us as individuals, more than ever, to do the right thing.
I’m proud to say that my kids are very observant, and have the personal integrity thing down. I’ve even taught them not to judge others that appear to be doing wrong, but to keep the focus on themselves; unless it affects them directly. If anything, my kids are fearful about the challenges they face as adults; because they question whether they’ll be able to make a decent living or continue to live in relative freedom. They are very attuned to the government and big business bearing down on the common person, despite the fact that no one watches the ‘news’ or goes about the house kvetching about “the Man”. They feel it, and they’re intimidated by it. All they’ve had for support for the past six years is a struggling single mother, as their father is deceased. There’s been little I can do to insulate them against the harsh realities of life in America, but they’re well aware that the onus is on each of them to make the best of it; while ‘keeping it real’.
No question, kids today are going to have a tough way to go. Pray hard.
Hey Elsa, I really feel for you on this one. No kids here but often feel deeply for parents in today’s world.
It’s a hard road to walk being one of few with integrity and honesty. But really, it’s worth it. I’ve been walking it for over 40 years and rarely – extremely rarely – met anyone with principles the same as mine. But i’d rather be that way than the other.
Fall of Rome…feel that too with the whole world actually. No idea where we’ll be in 40-60 years but it’s not looking great. It will be those who don’t follow the masses who are happiest in life I think. Hard for sure but worth it I think.
All the lowly people who cut corners, do not cost the society nearly as much as the thieves at the top. From their perspective, society only exists to support their personal needs, which are as infinite as their Egos. From their perspective, human value is measured in money and nothing else. The full scope of their corruption is something we easily miss, as they live in a parallel reality of their own, out of view for most of us. We feel the effects of their decisions, their mistakes and their rampant greed, but the chain of cause and effect is usually too long, tangled and full of missing links for us to follow back to the culprits. The people we know and see every day, however, are easier to spot and blame, as we can clearly observe the cause and the effect in action.
This situation is nothing compared with the one to come. Pluto has barely begun disrupting the system. What might this mean in practice? Japan is a good example of things to come, I would say. They buried their trash in the basement and got a rat infestation. They stored nuclear waste on top of active reactors and now they’re eating and breathing that waste. To a lesser degree, so are we. The true rats, of course, were the ones in charge of the show, not the ones in the basement, not the ones in the kitchen cabinets, not even the ones in the bedroom that built a nest inside the mattress.
The smaller rats, of course, are not exactly fun to deal with, either. I’m presently dealing with them myself and I can tell you it feels like being the only guy left to hold the fort. Society is not helping me at all, but impeding. In fact, the bad guys seem to be actually assisted by Society on more levels than one. The rats seem to have access to official secrets, such as the locations of people in safehouses. Their crimes are also investigated either very sluggishly or not at all, which would indicate they have some serious connections. Before we joined the EU and opened the borders, stuff like this only happened in far away places, like Sicily and America, but now we have become truly international, in the worst sense of the word.
Entirely intelligent and so true, every word.
Keep getting the vaccines in UK, my most unfavourite radio, TV, newspaper message.
There is now extreme evil everywhere in UK, we are now not wanted, robots will be in charge of all work very soon, algorithms. Nazism did not die. Censoring of free speech, 20 years old running their puerile businesses on You Tube, etc. How terrible is that in 2021?
More evil that I could ever imagine walking abroad, amongst us.
You get what you focus on, so focusing on different role models makes a big difference. There are lots of people with integrity in this world….even more when you start actually looking for them. I had this discussion with a client just yesterday. If you’re in the store and the cashier mistakenly gives you $10 extra in change, would you give it back? I know I would, and he said he would as well. I can tell if its right by the feeling in my gut. If it feels funny or wrong, then it is. Teach him to lead with integrity and honesty….because that’s all there is.
I have Pluto in my 10th Square Capricorn Moon in my 1st. I feel that with my chart I’m well equipped to deal with what comes.
I have felt my entire life that it best I prepare for an independent life and fortify myself to cope with adversity. And for the most part I have.
As for how to feel about living in a decaying society; I feel strong and hopeful that I’m capable of coping, come what may. I feel very good about my relationships and the people I am aligned with, and that definitely helps.
Yesterday my therapist told me that it appeared I process emotionally as events occur, his words were “You’re on the beach in Normandy, mourning your loss and the loss of your comrades as you’re running towards the Germans.”
I laughed. Because it’s true. It’s amazing to finally have someone in my life who understands my thought process in the face of tragedy.
This is going to sound bad (& maybe it is) but I recently learned that there is a 10-year 30% mortality rate for one of the ailments I have (I’m at about year 3). And with the way society is going, that isn’t too disturbing to me. :/
Pluto in the 5th (1 libra) here. I have a 29 moon sextile Pluto. My scorp youngest sun immediately came to mind in your question. For me it’s example deep example. My pluto also opposes my merc. All of my kids seem to really look at what I say but my two youngest (Taurus and scorp) feel … They seem to search how I “feel” in a situation or about a situation or person or persons actions. The old adage do as I saw not as I do would never work with these two. What I do, what I think and how I feel deep down sets the example of right and wrong for them. Their father and I are polor opposites so in the end they will chose an example to follow all I can do is hope they see the value if the example I have set. I can’t make them turn out to see things my way if I forced them, guilted them or unduly punished them how they act may not truly reflect who they are inside. I just hope they chose the high road and see the value of what I have lived.
It’s not the world f**ked up it’s the people who live in the world who can be f**ked up.
I’m scared that the recession will become a depression once Uranus squares Pluto or once Saturn in Scorpio and Pluto in Capricorn are in mutual reception.
How the heck are we going to get out of this one?
How do I feel about the world around me at this point?
I’m scared.
Jilly, similar situation here. Feel the same as you.
Conoco, i’ve been worried about the same. But also decided, whatever happens, worrying won’t help. think we can only protect ourselves as well as possible but know that we’re headed in a rough direction. I do have some hope there will be tiny miracles. Civilization has survived a long time. But how it will end up is beyond me. I’m trying to stay positive and just do the best I can in my corner of the world and life.
I’m disillusioned, glad I never had kids no matter how much I wanted them. I’ve had really bad people brought into my group of friends, and I’ve suffered from it. My illusions of humanity have been tested, but I still hold onto the fact/hope? that there is still good to be found, there are still people out there who live quiet lives of integrity and kindness. Yes, our civilization is on a decline, but that is the way of civilizations.
Disappointed [2]
@ jannevellamo
Our systems (capricorn) need pluto right now. There is so much outdated crap in there..more baggage than even I have! And that’s bad.
You talk about the thieves at the top and the thieves at the bottome. Thieves are thieves in my book. But I can tell you from experience in true wanna-be-a-scorp form that change is best from the bottom up rather than trying from the top down. Well, it’s quicker that way too. Knock out that foundation (your core workers and contributors) and the top can either fall or adjust.
I feel the doom looming… I’m also trying to give my kids a joyful experience in the last bit of time where they can still have the Beaver Cleaver life on some level. I address morality, big time, but my primary focus is on filling up their joy tanks. they’ll need them in the future.
and by Beaver Cleaver life, I don’t mean things, I mean experiences, playing in the neighborhood till dark, running through the sprinklers, playing cards with the extended family, eating watermelon on the lawn with cousins…
I’m trying to teach them the Life is Beautiful lesson that I never got. Elsa has talked about basic nature of being able to be pleased, whether you feel life is inherantly joyful or not and the overall effect that has on how one views life. THAT is what I’m trying to affect with my kids. Give them an ability to cultivate joy.
“”and by Beaver Cleaver life, I don’t mean things””
Absolutely Satori! Joy in the little things no matter the chaos that surrounds. If someday in a dark moment they catch a glimpse of say a butterfly and are transported back to a moment where they felt safe, loved, valued and happy I will have done my job
I think when my son is old enough, I’m going to try to explain to him that character is shown by what you do when no one is looking. It’s not about what other people are doing or about what other people will think of you. It’s not about looking good or looking cool or getting something over on someone else. It’s about staying true to yourself, your inner compass, what you you think is right. If you do that, no matter what, you will be able to stand tall and feel proud of yourself. If you have to answer to someone, you can do it with confidence.
Unfortunately, my husband lives by a very different moral/ethical code, where he basically feels line he’s always being taken advantage of, so he takes advantage of situations to his benefit whenever he can. I’ll have my work cut out for me trying to counteract that with our son, but I’ll do my best.
@Josi. You’re quite right, of course. We do need a good cleanup, a good demolition of unsound structures and when only the truly good things are left standing, a time of rebuilding and creating new, sustainable structures. There will be a time when rats have no place to live anymore. The thing we should watch out for, however, is becoming the new rats to replace the old ones. The opportunity for that will arise inevitably, once things calm down a little.
As hard to believe as this may seem, the world’s problems are no more (or less) than in times past. Please assure your son that this is not the only lifetime there is. When I see other people’s behaviors, I know that I will have to answer for mine someday – as will they. Keep him on the straight and narrow, and tell him to keep looking for the good in this world. He’ll surely find it.
You son will look to you as a role model, but it’s important to discuss various scenarios with him. When he’s old enough to understand nuance, that’s when you talk about the relative merits of some situations as opposed to others.
For instance, when my son was about five, he took a candy bar from the grocery store. I discovered what he’d done and took him back to the store to apologize to the manager and pay for the candy bar. That was a fairly cut and dried circumstance.
On the other hand, I knew a woman who escaped from the bombing of Sarajevo in 1995 and traveled across Europe as a refugee. She called me and said, “You wouldn’t believe what I’ve had to done to live.” I had a pretty good idea. Under ordinary circumstances she wouldn’t have stolen from anyone. But it was her life and her baby’s life at stake. In some jurisdictions, if caught, she might have been punished with jail time, but I couldn’t fault her.
CLD, 2012-2015 sound like eventful years astrologically.
And yes, I will try not to worry because like you said, it does us nothing good!
Do those of you who have Pluto in the 10th feel that Pluto in Cap is familiar to you, like you’ve dealt with these themes your entire life?
Also I’m wondering if Pluto in Cap will destroy the career ladder or simply redefine the collective idea of what a career is.
I am an optimist. I think that things must break down completely before some people will try to rebuild. Instead of cheating, lying, and scamming to get ahead, maybe people should ask why they are struggling to survive. when others are becoming super super wealthy. Why did out govt bail out banks and their millionaire CEOs and let the rest of us go on unemployment.
yes,i have pluto in 10th house. it conj my sun.
i always thought the society is dark side.
but now iam an optimist and agree with flip.
To flip and astree, I don’t understand your optimism and I would like to.
The way I understand things, when someone breaks down completely it stays that way for a period of time. If you’re talking about a society it can take 100’s of years to recover.
Is this what you are optimistic about? That there is a natural cycle and people will come from the ashes at some point in the future??
I know for me I’m only optimistic that we’ll get through it.
I sure hope it doesn’t break down completely, agreed I can hunt, trap, and fish, I know what roots and berries to eat, and I live in the country areas not the city areas so under a total breakdown of society I may survive, I don’t think it would be a good idea.
Major changes, yes, will need something anyways.
Wish the people we have to choose from to represent us were at all in touch with reality, some try harder than others, but it’s a choice of who will do the least harm.
yes,elsa.maybe i am male,i think everything will trun be good.it needs more times is anxiety of mine.
@blue_rose. I have Pluto in the 10th as part of a bunch of grand crosses. It’s also part of a bunch of grand trines, involving Uranus, Jupiter and Sol. I have no job, any attempts at creating a career have been futile, I’ve only had dead end jobs, all my Capricornian structures have crumbled, I see no point in trying to create more structures that would only be destroyed before being completed and I have little belief in the ability of our society to maintain itself for much longer. Is this good or bad? No, it just is. What must be must be.
Jilly,
You’re saying you’ve likely got a 70% chance of survival than?
Elsa: regarding the state of things. Well, there have always been street crooks. But not the massive disparity of income that is happening now. We are climbing right up the the disparity equal to what it was before the French Revolution. And the propoganda is pretty awful too. Both sides, but being a falming liberal, I don’t like what Glen Back and the former Royal manager–Rush Limbaugh, yep him–has to sday.
PS sorry for the typos.
We don’t mind, deney. 🙂 People here are used to mine so no problem!
I live in a very small rural town. Everybody knows everybody at least a little bit. A lying, cheating person could not survive here. If you try to short-change someone for their full cord of firewood, word travels, and no one will buy from you again. Only the honest workers get hired. Only the courteous businesses are patronized. It is a great incentive to treat others decently.
Society as a whole has always disappointed me, even at five years old. I was aware of being a mature Soul in a child’s body.
I have felt for about 10 years now that society will be forced to revert back to Victorian times, for lack of a better analogy. I am prepared to have my children live with me for a long time, maybe forever, due to economic circumstances. The only way people will be able to survive is to have several generations contributing to one household.
It is important for everyone to pump as much positive energy into the Universe as they can to help smooth out all the negativity running rampant out there. I tend to think some neighborhoods will be destroyed, while others will blossom – and not necessarily per economics, but per the positive energy, or lack of, the residents emit.
I teach my children to do the right thing regardless of what everyone else is doing. I am, by nature, a moral person and feel sick if I veer from my principles. Every little bit of good helps everyone. We are all connected and every single kindness we extend to family, friends, animals, Mother Nature, strangers – it helps all of us.
There can be more of us “good” ones than “bad” ones and we can shift the energy so that it all works out without having to have complete devastation.
I envy you, Pan_tiques. I hope to live like that again at some point. 🙂
Elsa, I am VERY curious as to what you think the whole world (especially the USA) will go through the next 50 years or so economically and socially!
If you feel that it’s best that you keep your opinion to yourself I’ll understand, but I am extremely curious as to what you think as an astrologer and as a person.
I don’t know what is going to happen, Conoco. People have free will and Uranus is involved. But I do know if you drop a coconut from the top of a building, it will hit the ground and struggle with people who think this is negotiable.
Hi Elsa and Co.
I just feel tired of mothering others and wondering who’s going to take care of me now that I feel so tired.
But deep inside, I know that this is just a phase I am going through before my solar birthday in two weeks.
God bless all!
Have a happy birthday, Cris. 🙂
Thanks Elsa.
“Society as a whole has always disappointed me, even at five years old. I was aware of being a mature Soul in a child’s body”
Me too – I was disillusioned almost from birth! You can see it in my face, in early photos, and I remember the feeling well – probably a result of being denied a mother’s love. I was very clear from an early age that I didn’t want children, for complex reasons of which my disillusion was a big part
Due my handicap I’ve often found it impossible to get work, sometimes for long periods, and therefore I’ve cut corners to survive with little hesitation (or guilt). I’m careful how I do that, however: as Dylan said in the song “To live outside the law you must be honest”
But I get very disturbed by some people’s manipulation of the system; not so much the obvious rippers-off and rogues, but people I know and like.
I have a very old friend (of 45 years) who bought a big house very cheaply many years ago in the city where we were at university, which is now worth about a million quid. He lets out two flats in it, for an income – he’s done all the work on the house himself. He nevertheless has managed to ‘claim benefits’, inc housing benefit, for many years (presumably the house is in a company name?). I really hate that – its not as if he couldn’t have got a job, and in any case he’s sitting on huge capital. He’s one of those leftie rebels, always preaching about capitalism’s evils and how we must all go green, and he’s a vegetarian. He’s generous though. It’s all very mixed up…
I love him for old times’s sake – but have no respect for his values. What example is he setting his son, whom he loves deeply and is clearly trying to raise with a moral sense?
“Do those of you who have Pluto in the 10th feel that Pluto in Cap is familiar to you, like you’ve dealt with these themes your entire life?”
I have Pluto in 10th, in aspect to Cap Moon. I also have Pluto sextile Saturn in my 8th (and the Moon rules my 8th).
I feel yes, I have dealt with these themes my entire life. In many ways because of this, I feel personally quite empowered at the moment, but that could be because in recent years Pluto crossed my ASC and entered my 1st.
The difference between a natal aspect and a Collective transit is that the chart holder (me!) is going to feel it deeply as it relates to his/her/my experience as a human being on this planet, day in, day out. Not just during times of transit.
A similar thing happened with this summer’s Grand Cross, it mimicked my natal chart and fell on natal aspects.
The more I study astrology (I also see an excellent and effective old man of a psychologist) I see I am well equipped for this Collective transit that mimics my chart.
I feel my instincts are well-honed, to the degree that I can leave paranoia behind. I don’t have to be paranoid, because my personal understanding of what I need to leave behind is a well defined process at this point.
I admit to being stubborn. Months before my former partner left, he pushed very insistently for a move. I refused to leave the apartment. I dug in my Taurus heels and refused to budge. He left. I am still here. It was the best thing I could have done; I actually have an affordable apartment (even on my very modest salary/student budget) in one of the most expensive cities in north America.