Women make women miserable more often than men do, though the women don’t realize it. This is a common scene as it unfolds:
-The man and women meet, they like each other and various things ensue. They have sex for example and they talk to each other.
-The man confides in the woman.
-The woman confides in the man… and also in her friend(s).
-The friends note the woman’s growing closeness with the man and consciously or otherwise feels threatened. Might she run off with the man?
-The man, feeling safe with the woman confides something that is honest but for some reason difficult for the woman to hear.
-The woman repeats what was said to her friend and the friend says, “you better get rid of that bastard – look what he did to you!”
What he really did is continue the relationship. He was confiding to start with and he was continuing to confide but you can see what happens here. It’s a cock-block. It makes it hard for the women to stay on track with the man and even harder to be happy with him. If you have no idea how else this might play, lemme tell you. Here is a supportive of your relationship remark from a friend:
“Sounds to me like he was telling you truth. You have been happy with this guy awhile so if you are thinking about throwing him back over one remark, you should probably think again…”
On that woman realizes, hey! Maybe the sky is not falling after all.
If you want to be happy with a man you have to run with women who are happy with a men because otherwise you are likely to play the above scenario over and over and over again. It’s as if the woman gets a new man on deck and the friend stands by with a tar covered brush, waiting for an opportunity to use it and if you’ve got someone like this in your life your chances of forming a successful, satisfying relationship with a man are almost non-existent. What you have instead is a friend who helps you through the misery she all but created and then you go on to the next prospect, wash, rinse, repeat!
And what about the man? He doesn’t know what the hell happened. He doesn’t know the woman has talked to her friends who dumped gallons of poison into the well. I think a lot women are freakishly unreasonable when it comes to men and if you have a friend who helps you stay this way, you are in big trouble and it comes down to the unconscious Mars.
Is the woman not attacking the man? I think she is, and very effectively. If you want to be happy with a man, spend time with women who are happy with theirs. You’ll be amazed at what rubs off.
I agree with what you’re saying about hanging around positive ppl who are good at relationships, but what if your friend genuinly just doesn’t trust men, I mean- don’t you just need to discern which friend to go to instead of just assuming this person is bad for the relationship? I’m saying this because I’ve been that friend because I’m deeply cyncial about this stuff, and when men say/do certain things I am that friend who warns against trusting him. And yeah, I’ve never had a relationship but I’m intuitive and I’ve been treated badly enough times to know when ppl are crossing a line they will never respect again.
Okay, I guess all I’m saying is don’t judge your friend who is cynical- she might genuinly be trying to protect you. I’m that friend, but I don’t mean harm, and I can be very right about ppl. I certainy am not an a-hole who wants to poop on ppl’s dreams. I’m just protective and inexperienced in trusting someone I guess.
This is some of the wisest advice I’ve ever heard. And you’ve told me this personally, Elsa, because I could easily be the woman in question here. And this has happened to me again and again!
I’m in a relationship now that’s had a lot of ups and downs (in good ways) and this is the first time *in my life* that I’ve not told friends about stuff, and our relationship is so much stronger. We both agreed to get through things for a little while without consulting with others, and it’s really nice.
But I love this line: “I really think if you want to be happy with a man you have to run with women who are happy with a men”
Wow. Couldn’t be more true.
Wow!! This really spoke to me. I finally realized this when I got together with my now hub. I am very cynical by nature(inherited from mom?). I confided info to my friend who used to go through men like water, and my mother,lol. I had a sort of a-ha moment and realized what you spoke about. Some people like to stir the pot and have drama. I had to step back and look at where this info was coming from and decide that I was the one in the relationship not them. At that time I too had unrealistic expectations of men in general. I decided that I had to nurture our relationship and stop sharing everything to friends. I know that they were “looking out for me”. Before this realtionship my relationships only lasted 6months off and on, sooo I actually learned something,lol.
So true! I’ve come to the realization that I can’t tell my friends everything. They will poision the well and confuse the hell out of you.
And people wonder why I would rather keep men as friends over women…I have ONE woman friend, and she’s just as quirky as I am…I like it like that.
When in a relationship, I always strive to present a “united front” with my boyfriend. I never ever complain to my friends/family/MOTHER about my man, because basically, they would descend upon him like a pack of hyenas. Once that negativity is let loose, it is extremely difficult to corral, and people say things which are never forgotten or forgiven.
Yes, incredibly wise advice. Poisoning the well. What an apt description. It has *incredible* power. Can kill a budding relationship before it has even taken root. People protecting their interests, offering their ill-conceived help, regardless of what it does to the person in question.
It’s not just with friends either. Sometimes it’s a parent poisoning the well, a sibling, roommate, spouse, boss – virtually anyone with an interest to protect. There are so many people who subtly influence a person. All they need is a weak spot, an opening, and soon enough they’re in control. Not only is it an attack (unconscious Mars), it’s also manipulation (Pluto) at it’s most destructive.
Oh my gosh Elsa….I’ve been thinking about this so much lately because my mom and her friends are all a bunch of man-bashers. I can’t stand to be around it. Once they start yappin, I usually roll my eyes an exit the room. But lately I’ve been speaking my mind, and they all treat me as if I am naive. I’m not naive in the least. I just know if I start running around with their mentality…..well, I’ve seen with my own eyes (via my parents) what exactly that attracts. It’s very hard to openly revel in a happy relationship, when you know your momma is waiting for the hat to drop. Oh well, I’m not gonna live my life that way. Sorry mom!
I think this is true in a general sense, but I think you would get this scenario regardless of gender. There’s a lot of mindfuckery when you’re the boyfriend or girlfriend coming up against anyone’s personal Greek chorus.
I truly get what you’re getting at, but I think you’re using too broad of a brush. Someone less willing to parse your meaning would come away thinking that because I am not with a guy, my pair-bonded amigos should ditch me forthwith because I’m bound to piss on their rainbow. XD
antapex – I made it very clear not all women were like this when I wrote this:
“Here is a supportive of your relationship remark from a friend:
“Sounds to me like he was telling you truth. You have been happy with this guy awhile so if you are thinking about throwing him back over one remark, you should probably think again…”
I agree that would be a supportive comment, assuming the comment was innocuous at its core, but I still think infliction of misery through relationship sabotage is not necessarily a gendered phenomenon. That was my larger point (which I strayed from by cracking wise).
I’m not going to win this because I have no idea what the comment was, nor will I ever, nor do I want to. Your greater point was taken in the spirit that it was meant, but I just react against framing things in terms of women are *this* way as stated in your first sentence.
(I have Libra, I don’t think it’s fair. 🙂
Thanks for the blog entry, very thought provoking in many ways.
Respectfully, Antapex
antapex – no problem. I am posting a story of two single women, neither of them cockblockers. I absolutely know there are single women who will help another single woman get a man! They loan you clothes.. run interference, cheer you and others things to numerous to list.
I am really busy today and not paying attention to my framing? I have said this many times now – I am not going to be able to cover every contingency or possible interpretation and if this is expected or required… then obviously I quit! Saturn in Virgo be damned there is a limit to what I can do here.
I think that this is very valid. However, I do think that we should still stand up and tell our friends when they need to leave an abusive relationship and to be very clear about that. There is huge huge difference between a friend that is going through bumps and adjustments in a relationship and one that is in a totally unhealthy situation.
Just want to make a distinction. (saturn virgo) 😉
i go out of my way to keep my mouth SHUT about friends relationships if i have any opinion that’s less than glowing. ask them what they think, what they want, etc. at most, i try to be understanding and listen while they work out their own feelings.
i have been accused of this once, but the guy in question had it ALL wrong, and his woman set him straight on the point.
i do sometimes talk to friends when i’m frustrated with my husband, but they are long term and understand it’s frustration, not an invitation to critisize. i particularly like to talk to a married friend of mine who gets that relationships have ebbs and flows and understands that i can be furious with the man and still love him like air. 🙂
I had the best friend you could ever have.
She passed away. Very supportive person.
I agree with poisoning of the well.
My mother could only control my dating when I lived with her after my divorce.
I don’t tell her anything that is going on and limit the man I am seeing from contact with her. I am still trying to getover Christmas. (lol)
Once a year is what I am shooting for. I always encourage him to visit family in other states at the Holidays and I stay back with her alone.
3 1/2 years I have been able to do this.
NOT HAVING HER AROUND HAS SAVED THIS RELATIONSHIP.
I wish I would have done this sooner. We live 125 miles away it has made this relationship last.
I don’t feel like I am ruining the man’s life for once.
Goddess – ebb and flow is the best description ever. I find that hearing stories of other people’s ebb and other’s flow gives me hope for resilience of my relationship over time. It’s not always perfect but it is often good.
That’s awesome advise. Kind of hard to find though. I hardly know anyone who’s happy with their partner or supports you because you are. Not that the people I know necessarily are trying to hurt relationships, they’d just rather sit around and complain.
I’ve never been one to share my personal (relationship) business with my friends. It isn’t so much really that I’d say the majority of my female friends have issues when it comes to relationships, but I’ve always felt like it’s sort of betraying to your partner to air your dirty laundry like that.
Interestingly enough, my friends usually come to me for advice. I know that there are always two sides to s atory, so I think that my advice usually works pretty well because I try to take into account the motivations of the other person involved. Also, if there are problems, I know that it takes two to tango, so I take that into account too. I’m not just going to side with one person.
The rare times that I do seek out relationship advice from a friend, it’s usually from a male friend, because well, another woman isn’t going to be able to tell me something about a man that I don’t already know. And my male friends have never been wrong!!! (I have some awesome male friends!!)
I have to admit, the only people who have stitched me up, big time, have been women. The women I knew had a strange sort of glaze come over their eyes whenever I discussed something of an intimate nature. Unfortunately, I thought it was an indication of boredom until I heard the story repeated by someone else, exaggerated beyond belief! And these were female relatives who were doing the dirty! I try to be a bit more careful these days, but trust comes easily to me. Moon/Neptune.
the problem, in my experience, is that more of the women i’ve met are negative about men than positive.
waaaay more of them. i got so i didn’t start talking about guys with a woman until i’d have quite a while to test the waters on her perspectives first…
Men are stupid they like boobs ? That is the title of Joan Rivers Book but my own father said that too me when I told him I was getting married at 18. He elaborated that having boobs was why I was able to get a husband and that I should make sure they don’t get droopy and exercise..
Perhaps its just a generational thing..I hope..
The more I read what I right I am really wondering how the hell my parents ever found each other. Two different continents between and an ocean but somehow these two nutballs ended up meeting. I should not be laughing at this stuff
but Its comical to me…He He He
From the outside looking into many of my friend’s relationships, it is easy for me to be perfectly rational about my observations. There are a couple I can think of right now that I think should just not tolerate things from their boyfriends, or that they themselves are the problem. But I have learned the fine art of giving my opinion and always ending it with, “Well, its easy for me to say since I’m not in a relationship”. I try to remember to be supportive of the friend by focusing on their good attributes and how they deserve the best. Relationships tend to run their course for as long as the two involved allow it to continue anyway. I do agree that there are many negative women out there who love to talk about how terrible their men have been. I don’t stay around them though.
So true all around. Thank you Elsa. I only wish more woman gave advice like this instead of the crappy stuff you can read in Cosmo.
It takes some effort to get down to the reality of relationships instead of the drama so many have come to expect (probably partly due to media, IMHO). Too many times something can be going just fine and others get involved thinking they know how things should be…this attitude doesn’t help or protect one gender from another – it most often hurts people.
Thank goodness for mature people like you Elsa who can recognize that first and foremost men and woman are (drum roll please) human beings!
If I’m having issues with my husband (of almost 10 years), I go to him with it, not my friends (male or female)… What can they do about it anyway? I totally agree with you Elsa- and in addition to them poisening the well, it seems when issues are discussed, repeated, discussed some more, they seem to grow waaay out of proportion.
So very very true
This has been a pattern with me, a pattern I do NOT want to continue. A man hurts my feelings, I run to Mommy and/or my closest girlfriends. “What an asshole. Dump him.” What else are they going to say?! No bueno.
Who are these women who do this?? In light of recent postings, it seems it’s women’s fault men don’t want to marry and it’s women’s fault women don’t stay with men and geeze, I know ladies can be vicious but damn. I guess what disturbs me is the overwhelming (occasionally misogynistic) agreement in the comments!
This is why I don’t have a lot of friends. Also why I like old people. If you have a relationship problem, take it to a wise, old person – you’ll see how much those problems don’t usually matter very fast.
My sister was like this with me. She wasn’t entirely wrong about the guys. But she has never admitted that anyone’s relationship is happy, in fact she has been critical of every married couple she knows, analyzing them all as sick, dependent relationships.
She herself is a very unhappy, overbearing and manipulative person, and we haven’t spoken in a few years. She was a terrible influence on me in many ways. She poisoned my thinking a lot. Amazing how much an influence an older sibling can have.
Kumquat, do we share the same sister?! lol. She was my BFF when I was in my toxic marriage and she’s my worst critic now that I’m in a happy, functional relationship. I know longer believe that blood is thicker than water. I trust my gut and pray for guidance.
One more thing, Kumquat. My sister has a 4H Sagittarius Saturn/NN/Vesta widely squaring her 7H Pisces Mars – yes, c-blocking! Her 7H Pisces Mars opposes her 12H Virgo Venus – secret (12H), lustful (Venus) liaisons (7H) for sport (Mars).
We really got lucky, didn’t we? Lol
Frustrating, indeed. Now our relationship is reduced to conversation on a superficial level; leaving out my social life. I feel emotionally safer that way. She comes by gossiping naturally with a loaded 1H Virgo (12H Virgo Pluto, 12H Virgo Venus, 1H Jupiter). Her 1H Libra Mercury is exactly conjunct my 8H Libra Sun – she knows where my “skeletons are buried” (don’t all family members?) and she’s not afraid to verbally attack (Mercury) my jugular (Sun). Easy prey.
Just noted one more aspect in my sister’s and my synastry charts: her 6H Aquarius Pallas Athene is exactly conjunct my 1H Aquarius Chiron. She LOVES to knit pick at my weaknesses. Thank you, astrology, for giving me some framing context!
@kumquat that happens a lot to many women who are unhappy. that’s sad that she has to find flaws on dependent relationships. Maybe she didn’t want you to be happy deep down, because misery loves company.
When I was between marriages she would send me articles all the time about how marriage ruins you and how being single is superior. I finally said, we aren’t on the same page here. She equates marriage with losing in life, like you can’t “make it” on your own. In her mind making it was being single and having a public reading of your self- published poetry in a coffee shop, being interesting (lol) while losers were making dinner for their husbands and enduring missionary position sex. Yet I never once saw her any small percentage of happy that these “loser” married women were. She also looked down on the kinds of wives her male coworkers married and the men for choosing them. Yeah, she just wanted company for her misery.
I can see how your sister was great as a supporter when your marriages were horrible and toxic, I think that’s an awesome sister to have. but, unfortunately there is a time to let go when their family member has finally found some peace and happiness. I think it’s also time to support them back and maybe help them find a good man. and hopefully they will find happiness too. maybe that’s idealistic, but its always awesome if family who was there for you during the hard times are there for you in the good times too.
It’s so weird how you realize the import of different stuff you were told as a kid/adolescent. How it shapes you.
I do notice that I get along better with women who are super happy with their men. I don’t feel any threat, or feel any bad vibes. It’s really nice to see couples happy and thriving, and having the usual ups and downs of life, that’s it. I think it’s because they are so happy, they have no time to go and try and sabotage and waste energy on it. their energies are spent productively with their partners and families, and their hobbies, whatever arts and crafts they do.
and I have noticed those women who are with good men, always try to size up me and my husband together, to see if we’re doing well too. lol When they see us affectionate in a mild way, cause we’re not PDA, they seem really relieved too! haha. so funny.
Sometimes they’re not consciously aware that they’re doing it.
Hm, well, I never talked about my ridiculous screwed up relationships
Subconsciously I guess I knew how it’d sound
So I said nothing because if I heard myself say these things I’d know how bad it was
& if anyone else knew they’d tell me
Then I’d have to face it & do something about it
Yeah, pretty stupid, huh?
& I’ve always enjoyed friendships with older people, generally women. I relate better to older people I guess!!
But in my case a mother with BPD narcissism has a lot to do with that.
I’ve a great relationship with my dad.
So I’ve never been down on men, whereas I find women slightly scary & bitchy, lol!!! But as I get older that is changing. & I can see clearer the whole projection thing onto women because of my experience with a mentally ill mother. My relationships with women younger & older are increasingly positive. Finally!
I try really hard not to be this way. But I do have an envious streak. I usually withdraw when my friends are dealing with men or male attention. And my friends have changed so much I am rarely with them when they’re in a relationship.
My best friend has Libra placements and has always thrown me together with her boyfriends, even if I wanted to distance myself for fear of messing things up. There was one who she and I knew was my physical type, which was funny. A Cancer dude. I tried SUPER hard to maintain a polite distance when we were hanging out, but he kept drawing me into the conversation and asking me personal stuff. I confessed and shelved him in my head as a buddy, practically a gal pal.
My friend right now is… improving. knock on wood We don’t intersect in all our goals but in some. And when people give him attention/cast quizzical looks from him to me when we are hanging out (people sometimes assume we’re together I guess… because we hang out one on one), it makes me want to act out to protect my ego. When he mentions writing I get threatened but shove it down. I probably say some things that set him back, but I consciously do work to empower and support him, just don’t always know the precise way.
Women who are happy with their men are difficult for me to converse with. Analyzing guys or talking about our personal lives is fun. What do we talk about? Politics? Then again, my best friend is far away. All my close friends right now are male.
I believe its key to listen; if there is something off, it’s likely to repeat
Men best girlfriends siblings and especially children. First touch your ear ,this is code “I am listening ”
Then close your eyes sometimes what you hear different than what you see or mainly feel. Fair , use your heart, it should always be fair
To you. If the dude’s a dope drop out. If you call them friend , I bet you both care; love is blind as when you think you are in love every song you hear applies every smile innocent and direct, it lightens the load
However I believe we are so tolerant
We let they “off stuff” slide by
Have a peace loving day.
I see this happen on a women’s app I sometimes use. I’ll often argue for the men’s POV because it’s just so one-sided I can’t leave it like that. The young girl or teenager asks for advice, and then all these women tell her to break up with him and that there are more fish in the sea. The guy didn’t do anything wrong. Maybe he did something she didn’t like, but it a was pretty normal thing to do, and then all these women tell her to break up with him? It’s almost like you found out that he snores, and you don’t know how to feel about it. So you ask for advice and these women tell you to break up with him because he’s horrible for snoring.
Oh thats tough. Especially for a teenager. Random women giving advice to them. But ive probably done just that.
Yes, this post is absolutely spot-on. I had a close girlfriend that I was friends with for over 15 years, who did this to me and then some. She became friends with two of my male friends that I was close to, then poisoned the well with both of them about me. At the time, she tried to run them into the ground with me, but I ignored her because I cared about them. I’ve just found out about her actions with my friends in the past year. I’ve cut her out of my life and have repaired the relationship with one of the men, but the other is gone. The man that I remained friends with reached out to me again after some time and then told me what she had been doing. Ironically, in my composite with this man, we have Neptune on the descendant.
But what if that includes not just women but men also, who don’t like or believe in relationships?! As they’ll get hurt?!
Let’s just say I met someone… We got along well but my mother ran her mouth and then one man in my family decided to involve themselves. Let’s just say this created more drama than necessary. And during Venus Retrograde, I thought we could sort it because the situation was so messy.
But this person I met almost 3 years ago, said something that woke me up… “I was just trying to change your ways”. The veil dropped. No matter how much I liked the person I never wanted to be changed by another.
But it’s true… Sometimes I wonder if I’m that person. But then again I’ve always been about giving people a fair chance, communicate your piece, hear their piece and be open minded. And if nothing changes then you’re free to walk.
Separating spheres of life. As a cap moon this is my system.
This is interesting. I had a small closed group of girlfriends growing up. There was 4 of us. I remember when I started talking to my high school sweetheart. They were pretty ruthless- they left me at the local fair with him and his friends even though we had originally came together and planned to all leave and have a sleepover. And I mean left with one of their parents without me and I had to find an alternative way home. Him and I went on a ride together and they were furious and slipped out while we were on the ride. When I got off another group of friends told me they left.
Reading this post, looking back, I should have drawn the line there with them. But I was young and as my grandmother used to say “what are you gonna do..”
I am no longer in their friend circle and haven’t been for many many years.
I’m married now(not to the high school sweetheart, but another Cancer man!) and we have been together for 14 years and I completely understand why it’s so important for there to be honest communication between spouses. If you need advice it should be advised to find someone who is able to objectively see the truths.
Jealousy rules the world….
I’ve found this to be true in the past 3-4 years and it’s honestly still such a mindfuck. I could feel myself doing it too, until I caught myself.
I was part of an online dating discussion group and you wouldn’t believe the number of times I got shouted down just for saying that some guy needed a chance. 8 times out of 10 the girl would kick the guy to the curb and everyone would be all “Yass queen!” which was in direct conflict with the group … which was a dating group. There were people advocating for ignoring men and doing your own thing, which I found antithetical.
There is a lot of bad information out there and I eventually left them bc I was v happy with my boyfriend. Women felt that I was either hiding things or exaggerating (or bragging) about how well I was being treated
this explains so much. on the ‘why are so many friends acting weirdly sabotagey now that i look happy with a guy?’
it’s sudden and unexpected.
and now that you point it out, my friends who’ve had happy relationships give better relationship advice. it kind of makes sense, don’t it?
This is why I have no friends (ha!) Or at least explains why my most respectful friendships/acquaintanceships have been with men and lesbians. I have three sport trainers I go to every week or so for a long time, all str8 women, no petty BS from them either (these gals aren’t jealous of me LOL, and are in happy relationships).
In the distant past I have given advice… like leave a chronic abuser, give a second chance to a guy in a rough circumstance, etc and it always got used against me in shockingly hurtful ways. The best advice my leo sun/libra moon dad gave me was never get involved in ppl’s personal relationship problems (unless you’re getting paid.) Also: Another happily married female leo once told me “absolutely no trauma bonding” that’s a harder one to adhere to (it’s so tempting when everyone is so traumatized) but try to flip it into empowerment bonding.