First, this is not intended to be political at all. I have been thinking about this for a few days but I have not been able to figure out how to write it without it being interpreted or turned into some political and/or without seeming to be passive aggressive. This is just an observation, or maybe it’s a conclusion I’m coming to after a lifetime of observation.
There are a lot of people, maybe it’s most people, who only want one side of a story. I will make this personal just as an example. Let’s say someone says something about me, let’s say it’s bad but all of this can be turned inside out. The person could be saying something good and it would be the same result, flipped.
So a person or people believe this bad thing; they come around to broadcast the bad thing about me. I say, “Hold up a minute…”
But they keep coming. They have their story and they don’t want it changed. If I even slightly challenge it, it will have the opposite effect. The person(s) with the one-sided story will double down on their position. It’s at this point I know I am being used. My energy. My hologram. Whatever. There has to be a bad guy and this may be the point!
When a person refuses to hear your side of a story, the most obvious reason would be that they want to feel and think whatever it is they feel and think about you. The most important thing, which eclipses all else: their thoughts and feelings remain in tact.
It’s a little weird. Taurus is known to stubborn but clearly this phenomena is more widespread. What about myopia?
I wrote about this in 2016:
That’s related but let me be clear, it’s not just “younger” people who are disinterested in the other side of the story. My point in linking that post is, if you limit the stories you’re willing to listen to or entertain, you are going be limited. It’s an anti-Jupiter thing, really. You don’t want the full story from multiple perspectives. You definitely don’t want the truth.
This may also be tied to a fragile ego or the total opposite – an inflated ego. Can’t handle being less than 100% right? I really don’t know. There’s probably a large number of reasons or combinations of reasons because this kind of blocking is also a defense!
You’re reality is defended all right, but at great cost, it seems. Too high a cost for me, that’s for sure.
There’s another angle here. I have seen this with older people as well and considering this might give a clue as to why the happens. You get to a certain age; some don’t want to know anything new. They may be set in their ways or, “you can’t teach an old dog, new tricks” may come into play. Your brain may not be willing… or capable of overwriting what’s already burned into the hard drive. But here’s the terrifying thing. You can be twenty-five years old and you’ve already reached this stage?! Now that’s scary!
If there is a sign least prone to this, it’s got to be Libra, who can’t help but see both sides of an issue, particularly when it comes to relationships.
Intelligence is also a factor. When listening to a story, thinking people will be well aware there is another side but this isn’t helpful when they refuse to hear the other side!
Have you noticed this phenomena? I notice it so frequently, I pretty much set aside anything negative that anyone says about anyone else (in my personal life), because I know I’m being groomed. I’m more likely to feel sympathy for the person being badmouthed, who doesn’t have the opportunity to defend themselves or perhaps explain their behavior.
What do you think?
Hi Elsa,
A similar theme has been on my mind last few weeks. What struck me was the natural inclination of many to want to be good, right – ‘light’. The trouble is in order to maintain that belief or make it appear ‘true’ something/someone needs to provide contrast …the dark. And so, to distance ourselves (from ourselves -a balance of light and dark) we end up casting shade on others.
I also wrote an article mainly about Jupiter earlier this week. The basic sentiment is a desperation to believe ‘we are right’ ..in turn needing others to be excessively wrong. Listening to the ‘other side’ is admitting we really aren’t who we want to believe we are – ‘the good ones’. Just wanting to be an ordinary human seems to go against societal constructs where achievement, being somebody is an unconsciously assumed purpose of life.
Love your blog Elsa…
Well here is a twist for you, steering again to the personal, mostly to avoid the political divide which I don’t even believe in.
The chances a person is right about my view or my feelings about something is pretty small. To marry this idea with yours, the idea a person must be right about how I feel or what I am thinking, is borderline strange. Especially when they would do anything but ask me directly.
It reminds me of algebra class, I took when I was 11 years old. I was taught to check my work. This suggested to my kid self, I may think I am right, but be wrong! To avoid cementing my wrong, I should check my work!
On same page with avoiding the political mess.
And yes, very small chance of someone else being right about how you feel, or what is at the heart of your views. I don’t know if it’s all that strange though. I travel a lot…always have. Who I am based on what someone else believes is often frozen in that time and place. Can totally relate when others don’t bother to ask directly (check their understanding) but rather skip to assumptions based on who they believe you are. I guess it throws them off? Sets off an uncomfortable sense of disillusionment?
To be honest I think most just want a simple outline of who someone is – the actually getting to know someone is work never ever complete. Again, I agree we change our opinions, feelings, experiences that reshapes us on so many different levels..by the second.
It sucks, but understanding really doesn’t seem high on the priority list for so so many…in my experience anyway. I think it is the reason almost everyone would be able to say in their lives that they feel misunderstood or state ‘I feel lonely even in a crowd’.
“To be honest I think most just want a simple outline of who someone is – the actually getting to know someone is work never ever complete”
~~~
I’ll have to think about this. I know it’s not the case for me. I’m always looking for a new wrinkle. Clearly, this is the case, seeing as I’ve spent 24 years, blogging. trying to dig at what people think and how they feel. It’s exciting!
There are people around here who have been here for YEARS. I have learned all kinds of unexpected things from them.
I had a client about ten days ago. She’s a doctor. She told me she’d read my blog since she was fourteen! I suspect she’s changed quite a bit, lol.
If you keep your friends, family or other relationships (neighbors even), you get to know them better and really, I think it makes *YOU better. More sophisticated.
Also, I think most would agree, we’re hugely self-centered in this day and age, at this time. Not that it’s going to stay that way, but this would explain the lack of regard or interest in other people.
Here’s another angle – you know how someone feels… and then ten years pass. Do you still know how they feel? I doubt it!
I have had my feelings change in sixty seconds and I know others are similar. But a person will like their story – like knowing something they actually don’t know.
Well said Elsa…My goodness more people need to say this all around.
We are on the precipice ULTRA HUMBLING times (just starting) and people refuse to see the other side on so many issues because it challenges them and their steadfast glue-like beliefs. Who benefits from that and who will reap the disadvantages of that?
I have never NEVER understood why people get so attached and identify with their beliefs and guard them with picks and axes…I just cannot for the life of me comprehend how people cannot see/accept other sides of what is presented to them. I thought this came naturally to folks but boy these last 2 years I have been proven very wrong.
An FYI on “Your brain may not be willing… or capable of overwriting what’s already burned into the hard drive”
…for those who do want cultivate a more Jupitarian approach, I strongly suggest understanding NEUROPLASTICTY, interaction of nervous system and brain
Great book~ The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Doidge,M.D
‘The brain that changes itself’ !!! I’ll second that …Great book!
I’m open to change and just ordered The Brain That Changes Itself to my Kindle – thank you M and Hazel.
When I first studied astrology I felt my 4 planet Libra Stellium was terrible. I was afraid I could never make-up my mind, and it was often very difficult. I discovered I don’t to have all the answers. What would life be without questions and challenges.
“I have never NEVER understood why people get so attached and identify with their beliefs and guard them with picks and axes…” @hazel A person’s belief structure is securely attached to their sense of identity. If a person’s identity is constructed as a result of repeated experiences of trauma (at essence, loss), which is most humans, then to unpick/un-do the belief system means uncovering the trauma. The underlying trauma glues rigid personality structures into place, but also, given the right circumstances and dependant on what remains of the person’s soul/spirit it can conversely be the source of transformation if the person can step into the unbearable feelings (often best to do that with someone else for a time). @Elsa what you are describing is known as ‘splitting’, a defense mechanism which protects the constructed psychic structure (which is protecting the person from the awareness of their traumatised self which is largely unconscious) and utilises projection. ie., The other person becomes the vessel for what is denied in the process of splitting, either good/bad. At the root of what is denied and projected, the particular thoughts or ideas, are always emotions and they will always refer back to loss. Even knowing this and being empathic, it is hard to deal with. With Pluto in 1st a person tends to attract the projections of others as Pluto triggers the other person’s unconscious self and thus their defense mechanisms which are holding back their awareness of trauma. It does allow the Pluto 1st h person to figure out who they are more deeply, especially about their own traumatised self, which is the only way to integrity and true power. Understanding trauma and psychological dynamics is essential to get through the relating minefield of this placement. Hope this helps.
I’m getting the nodes in Gemini-Sagittarius for the last 18 months having much to do with the other side of the story being shut down and more apparent. It has been endemic in every interaction. Fixed in belief like Sagittarius with Jupiter, which also rules media. I’ve heard recently Gemini can be skeptical, wanting more information. I can attest to that with Venus in Gemini, a 3rd house Mercury and Sun and natal Gemini-Sagittarius nodes 1st-7th. Yes to neuroplasticity! “Making a Good Brain Great” by Daniel G. Amen M.D. is good too.
My Son and Mother both Librans’. I have learned never to tell them of any personal difficulties with others, as they immediately take the others side without listening to the facts. They see it as a way to disempower me, or something, but they see anyone who gives me grief as ‘having the power’ and so jump aboard that ship. I feel so betrayed.
Check up fear-based reasoning. It’s not reasoning at all.
I thought of something else… a person might do this if they were hanging with someone they’re dependent on. Basically, they’re in agreement in their life and they want to keep it that way. A united front with their friend or their spouse.
This reminds me of a very old post – not sure if it still exists but this friend and fellow astrologer told me once, I had the ability to live in world of disagreement. This was a novel thing to say. Claire is her name. Double Gemini. She left astrology because consulting became to intense for her. This was like, 15 years ago or so.
Anyway, I didn’t know what she was talking about at the time so I asked for details. She said that most people have to live in a world of agreement – almost everyone is like this, according to her.
I was dumbfounded back then but I’ve since learned that she was right.
She had a great interest in Mercury Mars conjunctions and felt this explained my situation, I think. I can go back and forth. I like to go back and forth.
Anyway, this is another aspect which I can understand.
They need an ally. If they can get you to agree with their opinion on someone or something, it confirms that they are 100% right. I have Libra rising and listen to all opinions, but I refuse to get in the middle of the argument. I’ve been there many times and most often tell them they have to work that one out with the other person. When I was younger, I was always in the middle of arguments between my two sisters and you’re right, they were grooming me to be their sycophant.
The timing of your post and me reading it couldn’t be better. I have wasted my day TODAY with this very issue you describe.
My Mercury is 7 Cap and I was wondering if Chiron squaring is the reason I’m experiencing this. Neptune is also squaring my Sun and Jupiter at the moment. I don’t know, but I wish I didn’t care so much about being misunderstood. I have Mars in Libra. My biggest issue is someone basically withheld information from me about how someone else felt about me until it was too late for me to actually address it. Then when I tried to reach out, the person who withheld info says I can’t handle constructive criticism. Really, I’m more upset that they prevented me from being a better version of myself if I had known there was a problem. Instead, my behavior is “who I am” or a characteristic of me, which I won’t accept. I am not a two demential person, but complex person. Nome of the people involved really know me well enough to draw conclusions about my character. And me calling that out, well just made me a bigger jerk.
The fact you have interest in being a better person says it all.
‘being a better person’: Elsa, this is on troubling terrain, like all value judgments are when we veture to assess another mind/person, or, for that matter, our own. Good, better, best … who provides the distinguishing criteria?
In my world, the individual assesses themselves.
My comment was in regards to this:
“Really, I’m more upset that they prevented me from being a better version of myself…”
He/She is stating they desire to improve themselves.
Further, this used to be a normal thing… very common that a person wanted to improve themselves / their character. But the criteria is internal.
‘But the criteria is internal.’ Right! Thank you, Elsa.
I didn’t doubt I hurt this other person’s feelings, and if I could have addressed it in the moment I could have not only made things right by apologizing, but I could also have learned something about how other people experience me and decided from there if I could use the info to work on myself or discard it as “noise” somebody put on me that is more about them than me. Or, it could have been a mix of both! But, the one person kept me from this info because they decided they figured me out even though their version of me is a caricature. There is a Brene Browm quote I like and it’s something like, “it’s hard to hate someone up close.” So, when someone makes assumptions about who you are without the context (all assumptions) and you lean in, and get closer so they can see you more clearly, but they refuse to see and listen or lean in too, they don’t want you to be anything else but an “other” to them.
I have a stellium in Sag including Jupiter, and I know I accidentally hurt people. I also know some people are impossible to please, but if they are honest with me I will try to understand their position. I’ve worked on this! North node in Gemini (trying to stop and listen) opposite my Sun stellium in Sag. I agree this issue is in some ways anti-Jupiter (not carrying to explore the big picture and other perspectives) but it’s also unhealthy Jupiter in that their version of truth is cemented dogmaticly in stone and they aren’t willing to pause and gather more facts on the issue and consider there could be more than one truth!
I like the quote. That’s an astute observation. Thanks.
i feel we humans have lost our ability to look at multiple points of view,like realizing we all need help,but where does all the money,and stuff that parts of the government use to help groups of us come from since if some of us don’t work,where does the government get the taxes to fund these helpful programs,and why do sports leagues like the nfl ask most o fund their stadiums,when the revenue sports groups the nfl get should pay for alot of these projects,so then maybe more able groups could fund the nfl,and other stuff,my point being is cause some of us are asking these questions groups like nfl can show us their side of the deal,and unless we as some groups of humans just get the nfl’s point of view,instead of seeing the bigger picture that truly influences some of these points of view,since why instead of funding alot of people,and stuff in the city of detroit,michigan,some groups choose to fund a very bad team in the detroit lions,but groups like the nfl make it seem like detroit really needs the bad lions,when thy could be reviving the city of detroit,and make itspeople,and neighborhoods,and other stuff better,but since money tals,most other points of view of stuff is narrowed down to just certain points of view,not that i’, from detroit,or michigan,but it seems like the city was better off before the lions needed a den to call home,but i feel if we we’re given better reasons for some stuff,and given more choice how some stuff maybe our ability to view many points of view might come back,and most of us would be more appreciative of stuff,like how i feel indepth astrology is like a iceberg,and alot of it is underneath what we see on the top of the water,and maybe if indepth astrology were viewed deeper it might get more appreciation,since every time we interact with each other,or stuff around us born,or created most of us interacting with many levels of seasonal phases,and spatial points,like most who have birthdays around christmas,or new years,and then some of our seasonal phases,and spatial points seem out of whack,and then other days,or periods of time,and spatial points around us feel great,or just nuetral,since if our birthday just came up we enter a new solar return,or seasonal phase of stuff,and depending on where we’re our spatial points through stuff like local space astrology are shifted,or adjusted,and this is why i never like these stuff at amusement parks that spun too much since it disoriented me,i guess this is why i’m grateful for astrologers like bernadette brady who created indepth astrology software caled jigsaw that creates group graphs of phases of each part of a group we create so we can see how all these phases that are created interact so we can slow down a little bit,and adjust to how these groups we create of stuff born,or created around us truly interact,now if bernadette,or her apprentice indepth astrologers could expand the program to add more stuff like spatial based astrology,and show us mobile graphs that move,and show like how traffic moves around cities,and other places,and groups of people move,so that we as groups can truly understand,and appreciate this stuff,so maybe more views of stuff wouldn’t be so confusing,and since indepth astrology i feel is a very helpful guide,maybe this would how we interact with each other,and stuff born,or created around less complicated,since i not only have a solar return to understand,but i’ve got other phases,and spatial points around me to deal from tonight through tommorow,and then i have a more expanded stuff to deal with in 2022,so ant type of indepth astrology helps me get the bigger picture of these phases,and spatial points around me cause of these new phases,and spatialpoints being created now which interacts with my natal seasonal phases,and spatial points around me will be greatly appreciated,not that i won’t have good,bad,or nuetral,but if stuff like jigsaw help,some of the rougher shown through these seasonal phase charts,and spatial points could help me,and most of us adjusted to more helpful phases,and spatial points around us,and this is why i appreciate indepth astrology stuff like jigsaw since it helps me deal with stuff that keeps changing unless we truly stop clocks,and other time stuff around us,but stuff like jigsaw give me even more views of stuff,so i get a better understand of more views of stuff around me than just one,or two things,since this seems to be what we call life is really about,and once more of us understand this,maybe some stuff will be easier to deal with,since through stuff like indepth astrology we have a more expansive,so maybe even some stuff that frustrates us doesn’t seem so bad in the long run,which why i feel beyond just being a early probable system,indepth has always been a very helpful guide,and why i look at like a road map,its not saying we can’t go some places,its just giving us heads up if we need to adjust to stuff around us,and so by doing this indepth astrology is very helpful plus if we know our birthday,and closest time to the period of our birth,this guide called indepth astrology is always there for us,or stuff born,or we create around us,which is i feel if 3 planets truly represent what we call indepth astrology as foundational markers,it would be saturn,uranus,neptune,since saturn represents time and astrology is very ancient,uranus sorta represents the shocking insightfulness indepth astrology shows,and neptune represents sorta the foggy,sort deceptive view as shown to some of us as groups who study,and practice this stuff,and since some groups are confused over what is astrology,and why it lasted this long whether we’re in america,europe,or wherever,and maybe if indepth astrology were appreciated more,maybe neptune would be less a view of astrology in a junk science point of view,since whoever created indepth astrology had to know that once indepth astrology went beyond some groups stuff like relativity would how astrology is viewed,which why i wonder if groups like trump are using the darkside of points like neptune as a confused chameleon,and so him,and his groups don’t even truly understand what they say,and believe,since if some stuff you create keeps falling downing,and you keep getting into iffy stuff to revive,then something telling maybe you should move on,but i gather some groups like trump are like black holes that keep pulling stuff into them even if its very bad stuff,and so group like trump can’t realese the bad stuff cause they don’t understand,or appreciate how that became part of them,but then i feel they keep making less about choice,and more just their point of view of stuff around them,just stuff i ponder,and as i found parts of indepth astrology are very helpful as i soon reach 50 as a age,hopefully this stuff gives you guys many more positive helpful views of stuff,since i feel this stuff has helped me make it to 50,and hopefully later down the road,and if can me more positive,and view stuff around me in a more upbeat even if some stuff seems bad,indepth astrology has shown me these are just phases,and through its earliest roots in spatial based stuff as shown by indepth astrologer like micheal erlewhine that we can adjust not just our phases,but where we spatially are as well,so as the old saying goes if you can’t go through it you can go over,or around stuff,and maybe once we as most groups appreciate this stuff,maybe alot of this darkness around us might go away since hopefully most of us through stuff like indepth astrology see the bigger picture instead looking at a dark phase of stuff around us,not that everything doesn’t hopefully some stuff,but does everything have to seem so dark,since as i’ve learned i have alot more road to go over,and if i stay in bad place,i don’t learn,and maybe that’s the point of this stuff to appreciate what learn,and not feel everything in us,and around us has to turn to stone,maybe this why groups like shakespeakes are still being appreciated cause i’m sure groups like shakespeare went through many phases,and did alot of spatial adjusting,not that stuff like covid aren’t depressing,but i had a very nice christmas dinner last night even with covid around,and hopefully this view of this stuff helps you guys,since i seems we just need to adjust out of this rut we’re in,and hopefully once we do alot of chaotic stuff around us will cool down,and some stuff will get back to a better routine.
Goodness, Elsa! I have been aware, for as long as I can recall, of the firm determination of some people to ‘talk the party line’ without reflection: They will not consider your side of a picture even for a moment; they belong on a ‘side’, and they will not budge from there. I think of this as the ‘pack-hunter’ instinct. I.e., they will not act/think independently, for fear that if they do, the pack will shun them, and they will be left alone.
It is no doubt impertinent of me to give you advice. But I cannot resist in this instace: Ignore the pack-hunter who crosses your path; that person lacks the courage to listen and consider, her/his/its commitment is to howl with the pack. You are mega-multiple heads and shoulders above this sort of thing, and everyone except the pack hunter and its pack will act accordingly.
Well,times are unique? These past few years I think of an example someone threw my way,can’t remember
The exact amount of time but this is the example
Rats were put in bucket of water to see how long it took to drown?hours,however in the experiment somehow they were given something to hold onto momentarily short into experiment as if they could climb out of water
The rats lasted Days! Hope gave incredible resource of strength? Amazing how are brains turn hope to increased
Life time,not sure if I took this pony off the path?
This is a very poignant topic.
I’ve pondered this for a bit, too.
I feel many of us have been taught some odd ways of maintaining relationships with others and ourselves.
I see a lot of untenable agreements between folks. They’re extremely palpable. Our Westernized world is riddled with this, even in our ways of resource exchanges and within the work-place. It’s baked in. Years of marination.
One thing needed is time, time so that many of us can truly learn some up-coming lessons so that these unclear, selfish, habitual ways of relating to one-another mature.
I love your take on not taking on anything negative that’s being said behind someone’s back I used to badmouth people a lot and decided to quit doing so.
I remember when someone badmouthed a woman i didn’t know, i expressed empathty for this woman. “Who knows what this woman went through..” was my thought. Not much later i discovered this was my ex-sister-in-law they were talking about!!
I wonder if people aren’t becoming more sophisticated. Some people, anyway.
My thinking is that we’re a trusting bunch. So we’re out here on the internet, believing everything we’re told or shown. But now the veil is dropping. Most are becoming more and more aware of not only all the evil out there but also, all the brainwashing.
So if someone approached you with some BS, five or ten years ago, you might take it on. Today, a person may be more discerning.
It’s progress. I guess it may be spotty. It’s hard to tell.
Bottom line, if you’ve decided to think independently then someone trying to supply you with an opinion will instantly throw up a red flag.
It’s best for everyone if these techniques don’t work because as long as they do work, they’ll be utilized.
Libra Moon here, I have pissed off a lot of people because I can’t help but state there is another side and if I can see/feel it I’ll tell them what I think it is. My dad hammered into us, don’t believe everything you hear and only half of what you see. I always say there is more than one side to a story, the truth lies in the middle. I’ve also been criticized for surrounding myself with people who have different views and beliefs. I feel it helps me see things from different perspectives.
Just came across this apt jewel. “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance,it is the illusion of knowledge.” Steven Hawking
Hear! Hear! Wanita.
I would say this akin to ‘science is NEVER settled’
…there is always new information coming in…
When someone tells me …well i believe the science I say ya well science changes on a daily basis it is continuously challenged and must be adjusted and be flexible!
Think of all the topics out there where you are told
(deep voice)
‘it is what it is, it’s science, the science is settled’
Nope ~ never!
I’m a lawyer with Mercury and Neptune conjunct on my Libra ascendant, so naturally I can argue both sides of many issues, based on facts. Still, I would never try to argue with someone’s entrenched feelings or far-out, unsubstantiated beliefs. People just don’t change, although they hopefully do evolve. And usually, to evolve they need to get out (or be forced out) of their comfort zones to have new life experiences that challenge their old beliefs.
You make a really good point about the role of feelings and beliefs in conversations with folks who are not willing consider another side of a story. I think many times there is a deeper emotional issue that the topic represents for them, and an unwillingness to explore this. Instead they stand guard behind their side of the story as their shield from the real issue. And, since this involves introspection, I think it says something about us as a society since so many people are unwilling to do this work. I suppose not everyone knows how, and some people don’t have a lot of faith they can handle what they find if they look at themselves.